Friday, January 1, 2010

Happy New Year!

“Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.”
— Joshua 1:8

Have you set any New Year’s Resolutions? It seems to be a very American thing to do — lose those few extra pounds, sleep more, eat less, take up a new hobby, or XYZ.

Have you set any spiritual resolutions? I have. In fact, I have encouraged the staff at CRI to join me in reading through the Bible in 2010.

Sounds challenging, doesn’t it? I assure you it is quite doable.

In the time of the prophet Jeremiah, discovery of the Book of the Law was the catalyst for spiritual renewal. And I am utterly convinced that what happened in Jeremiah’s day can surely happen again.

Thus, the Christian Research Institute has purposed to tackle the issue of biblical illiteracy head on during the year of our 50th anniversary celebration by setting the goal of reading through the Bible in 2010.

I urge you to join me in the adventure of a lifetime!

In January, we begin in the Book of Genesis. As you read through the first book of the Bible, remember that genesis is from a Greek word meaning “origin” or “beginning.” In the beginning, God created the world and saw that it was good. Adam and Eve, however, fell into lives of sin resulting in death and are banished from Paradise. They are relegated to restlessness and wandering, separated from intimacy and fellowship with their Creator. Yet, the very chapter that references the fall also records the divine plan for the restoration of fellowship (Genesis 3:15). The plan takes on definition with God’s promise to make Abram a great nation through which “all the peoples on earth will be blessed” (Genesis 12:3). As such, Abram’s call constitutes the divine antidote to Adam’s fall.

You will see God’s plan for redemption begin to unfold — because you are reading the WHOLE book.

Do you know why most diet or exercise plans fail? We set goals that are unrealistic. When we fail to meet our high expectations, we tend to give up.

With my Bible reading plan for 2010, I encourage you to be flexible with yourself! There will be times that you may read ten chapters in one sitting and others when you may read one or two. There may be a day that you don’t have the time to read at all. Don’t fret or give up; keep the end goal in mind: to read through the Bible as you would read other literature — in books rather than in bits.

—Hank Hanegraaff


kris said...

Thanks Hank. Before I read your blog post for today, this morning, I printed out The Legacy reading plan on a 5x8 and taped it on the inside of my Bible. If you would pray for me as I begin this journey with the Saints. I have been testing the waters of apologetics and am very interested in its application to me, my family, and church family. Pray for stamina and dexterity in the marathon of Faith. Amen!
Correctness, clearness, and Christ.

Anonymous said...

Got my prayers kris.

Good post Hank.

Boris said...

Yes let’s all read our Bibles shall we? Only let us read them carefully without any preconceived notions put in our heads by other people about what we are reading. Okay? In the first verse of the Bible we read where it says that God created the heaven and the earth clearly implying that these are two separate entities or creations. I’m quite sure this is what the author (God?) believed too. Of course from any vantage point in space other than Earth, say the moon or Mars for example a person can easily see that the earth is just part of the endless expanse of the heavens or space. There’s nothing special at all about the earth but the Bible has led Christians to believe there is for centuries even up to today.

Reading on we notice that the Genesis creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. From science, we know that the true order of events was just the opposite. In Genesis 1:11 it says that vegetation was on the earth BEFORE the sun and moon even existed. Apparently the author of Genesis (God?) didn’t understand the process of photosynthesis. We know this because the story about Noah’s Ark raises some interesting questions. How did all the modern plant species survive? Many plants and seeds would be killed floating or submerged in water and others would be buried under sediment too deep to sprout. After the flood, soils would have been stripped and most seeds need established soils to sprout. Some plants germinate only after being eaten by animals or exposed to fire, conditions that would have been rare after the flood. Noah couldn’t have gathered seeds to reproduce all the plants because not all plants produce seeds. Even if he did how did he distribute them all over the world? All this reveals the fact that the author of Genesis (God?) did not understand that vegetation was actually a form of life and would be killed in the flood along with all the animals. He didn’t know much about animal life either though. When the animals left the ark what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. Where did Noah find penguins, polar bears, kangaroos and Tasmanian devils in Palestine? What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct.

In Genesis 30:37 Jacob has goats copulate while looking at streaked rods and the result is streaked baby goats revealing Jacob’s (and God’s?) knowledge of biology. No wonder Bible believers disagree with modern biology huh? The author of Genesis (God?) believed that genetic characteristics of the offspring are determined by what the parents see at the moment of conception.

Tomorrow we can move on to Exodus where we read some even stranger things about vegetation. It talks and according to some people, all of our human ideas about laws and morals actually came from some talking vegetation. Also staffs cut from trees turn into snakes and vice versa unless they get eaten first by the wondering wonder worker’s snake who is the hero of the story.

Let’s be honest here. No one would believe these ancient stories if they read these stories any place other than the Bible. No one would believe the Bible unless other people convinced them had to because if they didn’t they would suffer a fate much worse than death. Is there anyone here that would like to challenge that statement? I mean why bother? It’s true.

Erin said...

Kris...I'll be praying for you too! I'm sure this endeavor will richly bless you. If you pray for wisdom,the Lord will deliver more than you can imagine...not the least of which is the stamina you're requesting to get through the entire Word in a year.

Boris said...

Kris you are going to step in something gushy and stinky in your marathon of faith. Take off those shoes, stop walking by faith and walk by sight and educated guesses. Don't listed to these Christians. They are all liars. Every one of them.

D.B. said...

Boris, you bring up a few interesting points. The Bible (nor Christians' claims of the Bible) is not a science textbook. This is not simply a copout, but the truth.

Now, I don't have an answer to all your objections (not that men smarter than me haven't answered them, just that I don't have them at the top of my head right now), and something tells me from reading your posts that there isn't much that would convince you otherwise.

If God, who has the power to create the universe, wants to do things a little out of order, that seems perfectly ok. If the Bible if simply retelling the things that God did in the beginning and not an actual step-by-step accounting, that seems to me ok as well.

Also, your claim that all Christians are liars is higly mistaken, unfair, irresponsible, and intellectually dishonest.

We may be completely wrong, but many Christians believe in Christianity because they think it is true. The cool thing about Christianity is that it is open to challenge and question, and I think, stands the test when given a fair shake.

The best place is, of course, the resurrection of Jesus, since the religion of Christians stands or falls on this...If it didn't happen, we are to be pitied. If it did, we have the power of salvation. I hope one day, you will honestly look at the person of Christ, then move onto the objections you have. I am certain there are many smart Christians who have dealt with your objections more to your satisfaction.

Anonymous said...

"Thanks for responding to me. Here is a detailed rebuttal to everything you said.

Christians obey the Bible like it's a scientific textbook.

You can't convince me otherwise because you can't argue with me because I am of a higher intelligence and my google search will always prevail.

Christians like you are liars because you don't accept the facts I give you which are 100% correct and no need to look them up because you're stupid to think otherwise, but if you do I will simply google again and shut your mouth with facts.

Christianity doesn't stand the facts even if you give them the upper hand as I clearly showed with all of my google searches. Don't worry, they are backed up by good sources. Believe me on that.

I've already showed you that Jesus Christ never existed with my optimal google-ing and great sources. It's like we were practically there to prove he never lived.

Christians need to be killed or silenced so that my views will stand tall in the political arena because I know what is really right and wrong.

Jesus is myth, God is evil, Christians are stupid."

I took the time to post Boris' next comment so to have saved him the time. This blog isn't about Boris so why do we keep responding to him? Let him post his usually hateful comments so we can laugh at him like usual and talk about Hank's entry. He doesn't judge us so we shouldn't care. Stop letting him distract us from what's important.

D.B. said...

I think this was my first time responding to Boris, though I can definately see that he is a good example of not giving what is holy to the dogs...which is why I figured he was not interested in a civil dialogue. It is simple to disagree, yet treat each other with respect.

No serious scholar would consider Jesus to have been myth. They may completely reject Him, but rarely say He never existed.

I don't think I'm a liar...Wrong, maybe, but not a liar. Well, not about this anyway. :-)

Deak said...

Good work Hank. kris, you have my prayers. You will be blessed. D.B. your a good man.

kris said...

To those who've offered their prayers in response to my post my deepest thanks and gratitude. To those who spew discouragement and ignorance remember these words written in "ancient stories"(Boris) that are "something gushy and stinky"(Boris): "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death." Rev 12:11 The same Bible (the infallible Word of God) of which you have drawn these seemingly contradictory excerpts to discourage me and those who chose to join with me to read, in the verse above(Rev 12:11)refers to "their testimony" to you who doubt, your life can become a testimony that by The Blood of the Lamb/The Atonement of Jesus Christ, you can be born again Spiritually and your heart and eyes can be opened to see beyond your futile defense of Biblical contradictions. We welcome your skepticism and encourage you to "Ask,Seek,Knock" In Christ KR

Boris said...

I posted those “seemingly” contradictory excerpts from the Bible to prove that the Bible is very far from being infallible. It is riddled with scientific and historical inaccuracies, which proves that the Bible is of human origin. The reason your cult leaders demand that you accept the religious dogma that the Bible is infallible and of divine origin is so that you will selectively suspend your normal human tendency to be skeptical and curious whenever you are confronted with obvious problems in the text of the Bible or what you’ve been led to believe about it. This psychological phenomenon is called cognitive dissonance. When opposing data about the Bible meets what you and other Bible believers have been preconditioned to believe, cognitive dissonance takes over and represses this information or irrationally justifies the discrepancies in the text in a manner that allows the confronted believers to forget them. For centuries, this psychological phenomenon has prevented people from accepting rational conclusions about the Bible.

The Bible has had many critics over the years. Abraham Lincoln wrote: “My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.” And also “The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.” Thomas Paine wrote “An Essay on the Origin of Free-Masonry (1803-1805), about the Bible being allegorical myth describing astrology”: “The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally paid to the sun.”

Modern historians consider Thomas Paine to be the literary inspiration for the American Revolution. Abraham Lincoln had his faults but he freed the slaves and gave his life because of it and historians voted him America’s greatest president recently. Yet according to Christian doctrine both Lincoln and Paine are sentenced to eternity in hell for their honest disbelief – Paine most certainly for his critique of Christianity and the Bible, “The Age of Reason.”

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler said that in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933.

Boris said...

Hitler also said: "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

According to Christian doctrine one must accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior to be saved. Adolf Hitler was definitely a Bible believing atheist-hating fundamentalist Christian. Therefore while Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Paine (and the rest of our Founding Fathers) are sentenced to hell Bible believing Christian Adolpf Hitler gets to go to heaven. Somehow that just doesn’t seem fair. Now before anyone tells me that killing 11 million unbelievers simply because they weren’t Christians somehow means Hitler couldn’t really be a Christian I should remind you that brother Adolph roasted millions of people who disagreed with him. Just like his hero Jesus supposedly does in hell. The difference is Hitler just precooked some unbelievers for the Christian God. Then this God cooks them forever. The Bible tells people to try to be like God. Hitler came as close to that as any human who ever lived.

Accept your religion? You must be kidding.

AT said...

Hey Boris,
How's it going? I've never commented here before, so please forgive my ignorance. I'm just wondering where all this hostility is coming from. Regardless of who's right and who's wrong at the moment, why do you hate Christianity and the Bible so much? Thanks!

kris said...

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality,
impurity and debauchery;
idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage,
selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did
before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of
God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with
its passions and desires.
Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."
Gal 5:19-25

Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things
with his instructor.
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will
reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the
Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:6-8

The infallible word of God here assigns a profound description of
Adolf Hitler and Abraham Lincoln of which I feel we can learn. Boris,
you seem quite familiar with who they are and what they did, you judge
which verses reveals their character, and if you judge, judge
correctly. I have no authority to judge the acts of men, but the Holy
spirit is sent to "convict the world of sin, and righteousness, and of
judgment" (John 16:8-9). However, the fruit of their lips bears
witness to the intentions of their hearts. The Bible conveys
"cognitive dissonance" as an aspect of Faith (IMHO) in direct
contradiction and without the negative emotional experience e.g.
shame, anger, guilt, stress (see the biblical def. of Faith Heb 11:1)
. Hitler's experience and promulgation of the Gospel as you quoted it
could be interpreted as such; on the other hand Lincoln's experience
produced a positive thought pattern codified in his Legislative
theories. Maybe you should review the Office of the Reich, its
Ministry, Cabinet, Ideology, and resulting Legislation at the behest
of Hitler for a comparison. Cognitive dissonance here resulted in 11
million dead; Lincolns experience 625,000. Some trade off huh.

kris said...

Correct Biblical interpretation is critical from any aspect.
Christianity demands it of us and we respectfully ask the same of
others. Science is subject to the Bible if you care to dive in.
Biblical Truth seems to have been hidden from these men. (side note:
you may be right about AL, but I always heard there was one book he
was known to have "mastered" that would be the Bible. Don't know a
source or its full implication.
There is Hope for you Boris, most people find their pearl bury it and
hide it, their treasure and hold it. You however want to show us
yours, " No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or
under a basket but on a lamp stand, that those who come in may see
the light." (the context is a little different but the analogy still
stands) I pray you find what your seeking, receive what your asking,
and the door open to you.

Receive Jesus, Confess your sins, this is not my religion or however
you described it, it is "The Gospel of God".
"The just shall live by Faith" Habakkuk 2:4 & Romans 1:17b

To see God's word as infallible as the Christians decree you must
receive the Holy Spirit through Salvation. I will walk you through.
May God have Mercy.

The bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
But God made a way to bridge the gap, "For God so loved the world
that he gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever should believe in
Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The bible says that "If you confess with your mouth that "Jesus is
Lord" and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you will
be saved."

Your sins can be forgiven by God in this way and only this way.
If you wish to talk more send me private message of on the blog
whichever is comfortable. krisrogers0 at geemail dot com

kris said...

To those of you who have been following this blog. Boris found
these on

That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or any denomination of Christians in particular.
--July 31, 1846 Handbill Replying to Charges of Infidelity

In their enlightened belief, nothing stamped with the Divine image and likeness was sent into the world to be trodden on, and degraded, and imbruted by its fellows.
--August 17, 1858 Speech at Lewistown, Illinois

All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.
--September 7, 1864 Reply to Loyal Colored People of Baltimore upon Presentation of a Bible

kris said...

sorry that meant to say "Boris, I found these"

John Tucker said...

For those of you who don't know who Boris is, let me tell you. He comments on practically every blog entry that Hank makes (or someone on his staff makes). His comments are always anti-Christian and hostile, and he appears to be more interested in making dogmatic assertions than entering into meaningful dialog. He also likes to copy and paste a lot, which is obvious because I can't imagine anyone actually typing the long, drawn-out comments that he posts. Additionally, he enjoys taking personal shots at Hank and other Christians in general. In short, I've found it best to just ignore him.

Have a blessed, Christ-centered 2010!


Boris said...

There are too many reasons why I hate Christianity to go into all at once. Frederick the Great (1712-1786), who was a defender of Enlightenment ideas once remarked to Voltaire, "There are so many things to be said against religion that I wonder they do not occur to everyone. I feel the same way. Since you mentioned Christianity and the Bible I will discuss those two things briefly. They are both man-made, not divine in origin. Christianity is based on a gross misinterpretation of the Bible's mythology as history. The metaphysical claims of Christianity are not only false they are ridiculous. Christianity justifies its inability to prove its ridiculous claims by extolling the supposed virtue of faith thereby reinforcing the abandonment of reason. Young earth creationism is a good example of people trusting their religious faith and abandoning reason because there are many scientific explanations that show Genesis to be nothing more than primitive mythology.

I don't hate the Bible at all. It's pretty interesting if you know what you are reading. What I hate is people who haven't a clue as to what the Bible is about insist on telling the rest of us that they do. People use the Bible as an excuse to tell the rest of us how God wants us to live, what he expects from us and that God is extremely interested in our sex lives. It's all a bunch of man-made nonsense. That's the main problem with Christianity right there. Don't ask me how I know. Just go back and read some of my posts so that you may know too.

Boris said...

This website you got the quotes from contains all the regular and long-refuted arguments for Lincoln's supposed Christian piety. I don't think any of the three quotes you provided are authentic and neither do any honest historians.

The fact that you posted Bible verses to convince someone the Bible is divine in origin who just made the case that the Bible is of human origin shows how disconnected you are from reality. It's one thing to disagree with my refutation of the claim that the Bible is divine in origin but quite another to go on yammering as if no objections had even been raised. You haven't explained all the discrepancies and scientific inaccuracies in the text of the Bible which prove that it is of human origin rather than divine. Unless you can do that first why should I care what a bunch of backward superstitious religious fanatics wrote 2000 years ago?

Deak said...

Boris needs to learn the difference between a refutation and a counterargument.

Johnny said...

I think its funny that I'm a Christian and there's nothing in the known universe Boris can do about it. Nothing. I'm gonna be a Christian for my own reasons, I don't need to debate them, and I would like to see what he'll do about it. It's hilarious because he is 100% powerless and there's nothing he can do about. I've been watching this blog for awhile and I continue to laugh. I'm glad I get to pursue the purpose God gave me instead of denying such a purpose to be a guy with such a useless mission that I will never be successful in.

Boris said...

The great thing about Christian arguments is that they can all be turned on their heads and used against the Christians. Observe:

I think it's funny that I'm an atheist and there's nothing in the known universe Johnny or his imaginary God can do about it. I'm gonna be an atheist for my own reasons, I don't need to debate them, and I would like to see what he'll do about it. It's hilarious because he and his God are 100% powerless and there's nothing he can do about it. I've been watching this blog for a while and I continue to laugh. I'm glad I get to pursue what ever purpose in life I want to instead of letting OTHER PEOPLE send me on the useless mission of religious faith that they will never be successful in. Poof. ROFL!

Johnny said...

Your ignorance defines you haha. I expected better.

kris said...

From your recent comments you reveal in fact that you are not an atheist at the very least agnostic. It seems plausible that science is the god of your imagination. The problem is you can't prove to me there is not One True God that loves you, me, all of us. Let's remove this (God that loves) from the point briefly. You may have heard this before, you have to prove that "no God=universal negative". To prove with complete certainty that there are no white crows anywhere in the universe, we would have to search every portion of the universe thoroughly and simultaneously (in case the white one flies away as we approach). copy/paste from CRI DR503-1 Volume 22/ Number 3. This poses a problem if I were to prove His existence in this manner also. However, we can't deny His existence and love that has changed my wife and I through Salvation and the Reality of Jesus Christ the One true Messiah. I am not who I was, neither is she. Both recovering addicts, herself from the bondage of sex for sale industry, drugs, and prison. I sold drugs, used drugs, got caught did it again and again. Of course we didn't know each other during these years of our lives. We met in church. (Oh, her name is Hope by the way.) Our thoughts are different and we, as you assume of yourself, aren't the only ones in the universe. This however doesn't say anything about anything. My pastor grew up in church, birth to age 19, without ever knowing Jesus. Thought he had nothing to worry about because he was the good little church boy. Sitting in church blind. Which many are doing as we speak. You must remember the anger of one man may shed the blood of a thousand, another his anger only laughed at. They both have a problem. A standard of morality that you know in your heart exist, written about in the Bible, a standard raised by Jesus that is unattainable without this God that loves through His Son and grace. May it go well with you.

D.B. said...

All siad, I think that Boris sometimes brings up some interesting points. And I also think that there are many folks who have answered these objections. Obviously not to the satisfaction of Boris, but they have done a fine job answering many of the objections of skeptics.

While I must exercise a degree of faith, for me (and it should be for many Christians), it is not a blind faith- at least it doesn't need to stay there.

My faith is grounded in the life death and resurrection of Jesus. If this didn't happen, then I'm with you Boris; we Christians are idiots and our faith is completely ridiculous. On the other hand, if it did happen, then that also has implications and strengthens my trust in the God of the Bible.

I think the Bible is trustworthy. I think many of the difficulties are answerable, and many do not play a major part in the doctrines of Christianity. I can't speak for others, but my faith is not taken lightly, it is not blind, it is not a leap. It is a reasonable trust in God based, mainly, on the resurrection of Jesus.

BTW, it does little good to ridicule the ones you are trying to persuade to your position. That goes for Christians and Boris.

There are perhaps good arguments to be had about different difficulties in Scripture (And every worldview has its difficulties-even yours Boris)but when you start by calling Christians liars, are probably not going to get far. Just my thoughts.

kris said...

Here are some Bible fact for you Boris that you can click and search til your heart is content.
The Word of God is powerful. Through the ages men have tried to completely do away with the Bible. No other book has been so attacked throughout history as the Bible. In A.D. 300 the Roman emperor Diocletian ordered every Bible burned because he thought that by destroying the Scriptures he could destroy Christianity. Anyone caught with a Bible would be executed. But just 25 years later, the Roman emperor Constantine ordered that 50 perfect copies of the Bible be made at the government’s expense. The French philosopher Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lives on. The irony of history is that 50 years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society purchased his former house and used his printing presses to print thousands of Bibles! And to this very day the Bible is the best selling book in the world! I agree with Isaiah- “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.”

Hebrews 4:12 tells us “The word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” The Bible is more than a collection of words of pages; the Bible is “God-breathed.” God’s authority and power are present in every word and can penetrate into the deeper part of our being. God describes His Word as a “seed” and as a “sword,” a “hammer,” and “fire.” Millions of people through the ages from kings to common men, have had their lives radically changed by the Word, because through it the living God speaks to us through the power of His precious Holy Spirit. If today just 10 people were picked who were from the same place, born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made about the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible stands alone. It was written over a period of 1,500 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds, or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony. They wrote in dungeons, in temples, on beaches, and on hillsides, during peacetime and during war. Yet their words sound like they came from the same source. So even though 10 people today couldn’t write on one controversial subject and agree, God picked 40 different people to write the Bible and it stands the test of time. some excerpts from Ray Comfort

Boris said...

Don't lecture me on what you think an atheist is. Obviously you've read some false claims made by Christian apologists about what atheism and atheists really are. Instead you should learn how atheists and dictionaries define atheism and agnosticism before you presume to impose your own definitions on them.

I can't prove there is no God but science has proved that the Christian God, the God of the Bible does not exist. For instance the Passover event, the event central to both Judaism and Christianity simply never happened. A catastrophic event such as every Egyptian firstborn child and animal all dying on one night could not have gone completely unnoticed and unreported in the all of the historical inscriptions we have from ancient Egypt. Such an event, had it really occurred, would have left a mountain of historical and archaeological evidence. But like every other supposed event and major figure described in the Bible, from creation to the crucifixion, from Adam to Jesus there isn't a shred of evidence from outside the Bible that any of these events actually took place or that any of these people ever existed. Almost all fiction is put in a somewhat historical setting and mentions a few historical places and people. That the Bible does this only proves it is ancient fiction.

There is no such thing as a historical narrative that contains word for word dialog of with people speaking in complete sentences. Only fiction contains this kind of writing. There are no exceptions to this rule when it comes to literary criticism. When we hold the Bible up to normal criticism it fails every test for historicity and passes all the tests for fiction with flying colors. The Christian community continues to exist mostly because these facts have largely been withheld from them.

Boris said...

Now as for your claims that belief in a particular deity has changed your life I don't doubt that. The problem is that people of all religions make the exact same claims. So I can't take the claim that your life has changed for the better as evidence that your God actually exists. Why should I accept a claim as evidence for your God that you would never accept from a member of another religion as evidence for theirs?

The Christian Bible didn't even come into existence until after 325 CE so no Bibles could have been gathered and burned in 300 CE. They didn't exist.

The Christian version of how the Bible was written and who wrote it is pure nonsense. No one sat down and wrote anything in the Bible like say Steven Spielberg or any other writer writes their stories, inspired or not. The stories in the Bible are oral traditions that predate writing. The men who put these stories down in writing were simply retelling ancient stories they heard from their grandparents, orators, teachers or from some other human source. They aren't divinely inspired. I know you think the Bible predicts events and then claims these events came to pass. But you have no evidence that fiction writers didn't simply write their stories to make it seem like ancient prophecies actually came true. That is in fact the truth. Your belief in the Bible's supposedly magical predictive powers requires a supernatural explanation. Mine does not. Which explanation is more plausible? Hint: It isn't yours.

Ray Comfort is a moron. He's still promoting his "banana as proof of creation" hoax. Someone finally informed this scientific ignoramus that the reason bananas seem engineered for human consumption is that they are. Original bananas were short, stubby, filled with seeds and hard to eat. The reason we have friendlier bananas today is because humans selectively cultivated and bred bananas into their now familiar form. This is artificial selection which is very closely related to natural selection, the basis of evolution. So Ray Comfort in his passion to disprove evolution shoots himself in the foot and proves what he is attempting to disprove. Comfort is a babbling idiot and I question the intelligence of anyone who can't see the fallacies in his stupid arguments. Shame on you.

kris said...

Boris, the profound ignorance and lack of understanding you have of scripture is astonishing. This is primarily evident that you speak about them at all. Take the Psalms for example; you state and I quote "There is no such thing as a historical narrative that contains word for word dialog of with people speaking in complete sentences. Only fiction contains this kind of writing. There are no exceptions to this rule when it comes to literary criticism." The Psalms a book of poems, songs, or hymns that stretches the gamete of literature, with complete sentences, and depending on which Psalm you are reading are considered non-fiction. In part, they provide a theoretical setting in which the psalms have living meaning and undoubtedly in some respects correspond to the facts. Now you are either illiterate, literate but slow, or you just haven't read that which you vehemently refute. I believe it's more like Isa 6:9 He said, "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' This is not a personal attack on you Boris, just your ideology. For heaven's sake do yourself some justice and at least try. Now I am no Bible scholar and won't claim to be. I just approach the Scriptures with prayer and respect.

kris said...

I agree the Passover is sticky, but it too must also be understood in context. Someone wisely said "text without context is pretext. To all who are reading this blog, bear with me and pray for Boris.



Boris said...

When Christians are confronted with insurmountable problems in the Bible they usually make the desperate and defensive claim that the person presenting the problems just needs to read the Bible more carefully because they don't understand it. Of course the opposite is true, it's always the Christian who hasn't really read their Bible carefully and with a critical skeptical mind. This is because their cult leaders have convinced them that to criticize the Bible is a sin punishable by eternal damnation. I can prove this. Can you explain how in chapter 31 of Numbers we read that the Midianites were completely annihilated except for a few virgins to be kept for the purposes of raping by the Hebrew men? Then in Judges 6, during the very next generation we read that the Midianites attacked the Israelites and that the Midianites were so numerous they were like locusts on the land. I have confronted many popular Christian apologists such as Robert Turkel (aka J.P Holding), (Witch) Dr. Michael Brown and Gary (The Liar) DeMar with this problem. Watching them twist in the wind and panic because they never noticed this major problem in the text of the Bible before is just priceless entertainment and very intellectually satisfying. Would you like to try to explain this major problem Kris? I didn't think so. Best to ignore it and wish-think it or pray it away huh? ROFL! Gotcha! If you creationist losers ever found a problem like this in a major scientific theory we would never hear the end of it. But when critics point out major flaws in the text of your book of magic and fairies you believers can just believe them away using that incredible Christian capacity for cognitive dissonance. You absolutely refuse to hold your boogy book up to normal textual criticism but yet you nit pick at long standing and well-established scientific explanations. The hypocrisy in your evil and false religion is just of the charts.

I think you are purposely avoiding the problem of word for word conversations supposedly recorded in the Bible. You know very well I'm not talking about the poetry and prose in the Psalms. I'm talking about word for word conversations "reported" in the Bible when no one was around to hear them. Who recorded word for word conversations between Ahab and Jezebel, Nicodemus and Jesus, David and Saul or Adam and Eve may I ask? Or even more absurd who recorded conversations between a magical talking snake and rib woman, a talking donkey and a magician or Satan and Jesus alone on a mountain from which they could see the entire flat earth? The answer of course is no one. These conversations are the product of the minds of fiction writers. There are no historical narratives anywhere that contain word for word dialog of people speaking in complete sentences. No one speaks like that in real life and when we read these conversations we know for a fact that they are fictional. Well those of us who have a basic knowledge of ancient literature know this anyway.

As far as my knowledge of the Bible I have a degree in Ancient Near Eastern Studies from a private Christian college. I had two years of Ancient Greek in high school and more three years of it in college. I'm a Jew and can read enough ancient Hebrew to get by. The fact that I can read the Bible in its original languages gives me a distinct advantage in debates with Christians who can barely read their poorly translated KJVs. You are certainly no Bible scholar. I on the other hand, have a piece of paper given to me by Christians that says I'm as qualified to comment on the Bible as anyone. This is why you are losing this debate so badly Kris. You're out of your league.

James said...

I will Kris, but it's better on here to just ignore Boris as he's hard-hearted(I pray he'll change soon as 150,000 people die EVERY DAY!)

So if he hasn't repented and turned his faith in Jesus Christ before he dies, the blood will be on his own head.

Boris, one quick question/statement: Comment back and tell us the day you are going to die...if you know the exact date.


Boris said...

FYI about 162,800 people die every day. About 185 of them are women who die from complications following illegal abortions in the few fascist Christian theocracies where abortions are still illegal. That's on YOUR head buddy.

I have already explained on this blog that the Jesus of the gospels is simply an allegory for the sun passing through the twelve signs of the zodiac. No such person as Jesus Christ ever existed and no one will ever convince me that he did. I have actually looked at the supposed extra-biblical evidence desperate and dishonest Christian apologists use to support their bizarre claims that Jesus actually existed. It's a joke. The first references o this person are from 60 to 82 ears after Jesus supposedly died! Are you kidding me? No in fact you aren't. That's the best evidence you have for your Jaysus. Sorry, no dice.

I don't know when I'm going to die. No one does. But I know this: when I die I will be just like I was before I was born. The dead don't know their dead. The brain ceases to function upon physical death and what was once our thoughts, memories, hopes and dreams vanishes as if they never existed. Even your beloved Apostle Paul explained that the only way we can really live on after we die is in the memories of the people who knew us. Your English Bible may lead you to believe otherwise but English Bibles were invented and translated in such a manner as to deceive those who want to be deceived anyway. That would be you. Loser.

James said...

Thank you for your response.

But IF...I mean IF there is a God and a Jesus Christ who sits at God's mighty right hand and He sees you,
(just remember IF,IF,IF) and as a just judge He'd have to send you to hell...wouldn't that concern you?


Boris said...

But IF... I mean if there is a God and He is Allah the God of Islam and He sees you (just remember IF,IF,IF) and as a just judge He'd have to send you to hell... wouldn't that concern you?

Is that just too big of an IF for you James? Why exactly? What is "just" about sending someone to hell because they made an honest mistake and adopted the wrong religion or no religion at all anyway? You Christians have some strange concepts about what justice is. When you figure out why being sent to the Muslim hell for mistakenly adopting the wrong religion doesn't concern you then you'll understand why I'm not the least bit concerned about being sent to the Christian hell. Why should I accept an argument from you that you would not accept from a member of another religion? It's the same fallacious argument. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because creating fear in people does not constitute evidence for a claim. And no matter what anyone says I'm simply not afraid and never will be.

Your argument is really just a version of Paschal's Wager. There are several objections to this wager the most obvious one is that a person cannot simply will himself to believe something that is evidently false to him. Also God would probably not reward belief based solely on hedging one's bet which is what you are suggesting I do. This wager could apply to belief in the wrong God as it would to disbelief in all gods thereby leaving the believer in the same situation as the agnostic or atheist.

Christians often ask me what I'm going to say to Jesus when I meet him upon my death. I respond by saying that I would tell Jesus he needed to get some better representation on Earth. The fact is though that if this God could read my mind then he would know precisely why I did not believe he existed. He would know that I never rejected him because I never thought there was any God to reject. This God would know that I merely rejected what all people said about all Gods.

I might also point out that while I was alive I had read the Bible more than most of his followers. I spent five years studying Ancient Greek in school where I also studied Church history. I read more, thought more, studied more and wrote more about religion than most Christians. And since I didn't even believe in Him I should get double credit!

Seriously though we humans are evolved and not created biological organisms. We are related to trees, ants and bacteria. If trees ants and bacteria don't have an afterlife in a magic spirit world then neither do we. All available data points to the fact that when we die that's it. People ask me where I'll be in 300 million years. The answer is the same place I was 300 million years ago. I know these things are hard for people like you to accept which is where this fear and hatred of science comes from in you believers. Look, science is our best defense against believing what we want to. I suggest you catch a whiff of that.

Don said...

"We are related to trees, ants and bacteria."

LOL! To think! Which one are you related to, Boris? :-)

Boris said...

I said WE Don. WE are related to ants, trees and bacteria, not just me. Did you know that humans are a species of apes? Yes as hard as it is for you to believe all apes, Bonobo apes, Gorilla apes, Orangutan apes, Chimpanzee apes and human apes all share a common ancestor we call Australopithecus. Please don't tell me this animal never existed or was an ape or that there are no transitional fossils. Hospitals now consider those claims to be signs of brain death. It may be true that Bible believers are not part of this family after all, which may explain some of their angst at being included in it. They may be the last of an endangered species known as Creationopithecus Alabamas. We don't find in this species any of the normal signs of human curiosity, skepticism, sense of humor, desire for intimacy with other humans especially the opposite sex, creativity, bravery, or moral instincts. This all leads us to believe that this species must have been some kind of herd animal in the distant past. I mean they still are.

Anonymous said...

So, you claim God sends people to hell because of "an honest mistake" on their part? Is that the category you'd fall into if we are right, Boris? No, you and countless millions of others are delibrately rejecting God on all levels. To call that an "honest mistake" on Judgment Day is laughable.

Boris said...

Your argument fails on so many levels it's bizarre. Why do you deliberately reject Allah or Krishna? Are you deliberately rejecting Allah or Krishna do you simply believe there is no Allah or Krishna to reject? You can't reject something that you don't think exists.

Christianity justifies its inability to prove its ridiculous claims by extolling the supposed "virtue of faith" coupled with the threat of eternal damnation for the supposed crime of unbelief and thus reinforces the abandonment of reason. Once a person has sacrificed their ability to use reason and logic on the altar of religious superstition they'll believe just about anything their cult leaders tell them to believe.

Half of the people who have lived and died in the last 2000 years never even heard of the Christian God or the Bible. Please explain how any of them rejected the God of the Bible. Half of the people alive today also know absolutely nothing about the Christian God or the Bible and many who do don't know enough to make an intelligent decision about whether to believe what OTHER PEOPLE say about this God is true or not. Especially people like you who have let fear guide them into believing what OTHER PEOPLE have told them.

Your Christian God comes with way too much unbelievable baggage such as angels, Satan, demons and stories about how demons cause diseases and Jesus and other people cast out demons and cured diseases. How about dead people coming back to life and digging themselves out of their graves and then walking into a city and appearing to many other people? I should suspend my disbelief in those ridiculous beings and stories so I can win a one way ticket to a magic happy land? I cannot make myself believe what all available data says is impossible.

I don't expect you to have the intellectual capacity to grasp the objections to your claims. If you Christians could understand just how incredibly stupid the arguments used to indoctrinate you really are you wouldn't be Christians. Of course many do figure this out after a while which is why about 5000 Americans a day reject their faith and stop going to church forever. Especially college students 3 out of 4 of whom reject their Christian faith before they graduate. Fear is not a reasonable basis on which to accept an argument. But then as Martin Luther said: "Reason should be destroyed in all Christians."

Don said...


I do not believe we are related to them. We can agree to disagree.

Don said...

Oh... you still didn't answer my question. :-)

Anonymous said...

All you people who deny common descent also believe in angels, Satan, demons and that demons cause diseases and that Jesus and other people cast out demons to cure diseases. So you can disagree with science all you want. This is something Bible believers just like you have done ever since there was a Bible. I answered your question. You just don't like the answer. Take your question to the science department at any CHRISTIAN college or university and you'll get the exact same answer. How would you explain that may I ask?

If you do some research you will find that no Protestant denomination accepted the findings of Galileo and Copernicus until well into the 19th century, about 200 years after these men made their discoveries. All Protestant denominations held to the Bible's description of the earth which is flat and immovable. So if this were 1810 instead of 2010 you would be insisting that we agree to disagree about the shape of the earth and whether it orbited the sun or as the Bible clearly states the sun orbits the earth.

The only way you people can justify your anti-science attitudes and propaganda is by totally ignoring the history of your religion's failed attempts at standing in the way of advancing science and silencing scientists. Go ahead disagree all you want to. Your basing your disagreements on a book that says the earth is flat and immovable.

D.B. said...

Not to deliberately plug another website, but has some good resources dealing with many of the objections brought up here.

They have an Academy section that deals with Answering the Objections of Atheists, Making a Case for God's Existence, Articulating the Gospel Message, and Embracing the Christian Essentials.!

And it is all free. There are PDF files, audio and some video files.

The man, Jim Wallace (different from another by the same name), is a coldcase homicide dectective who was an atheist for many years, who changed his mind after looking at the evidence for God and, subsequently, the Christian faith.

I think he does a decent job of laying out the case, in a fairly easy to understand way. Perhaps it will help some folks here.


Boris said...

Not to deliberately plug another website, but has some good resources dealing with many of the objections brought up here.

Derrick I checked out this website you mentioned and let me give you just one example of the false claims Jim Wallace makes. In his section on Intelligent Design he is at least honest and bold enough to admit that Intelligent Design "Theory" (read: magic) is not science. But then he goes on to say that Intelligent Design is the best conclusion to make from science. This is absolutely false. If it were true the scientific community would embrace ID. Instead scientists have shown how life is designed from the bottom up, not by human like top down design. There is no question about this. The only questions are about some of the finer points of the mechanisms of natural selection.

I've raised many objections to Christian claims on this blog none of which have been answered satisfactorily as I have meticulously refuted any answers anyone has given up to this point. You're welcome to attempt to answer some of the objections I've raised, questions I've asked or problems I've pointed out with your religious texts and doctrines. For the most part these things are simply ignored. When Christians think they have answers they can't help but share them. Obviously none of the Christians on this blog have any answers for atheists. I'm quite sure that includes you buddy. Bring 'em on.

D.B. said...

Boris, it is not because many on here haven't tried. I think the problem is that you are often too argumentative and settled in your own mind to hear the valid points folks have brought up here.

Just as you have encountered folks that dismiss your objections, so, too, you dismiss the points brought up here in response. You don't even have to agree to admit some of the points are at least thought through.

I believe I (and several others)have been gracious to admit that you bring up some good points; and yet time and again you have called me and all of my brothers liars. That does not make for a civilized discussion and disagreement. So, no, I don't blame them or me for not wanting to carry on with you.

If I kept coming to your house trying to convince you that you were wrong and I started out by calling you and your mother stupid whores and talked about all the whorish things you do, would you give a rat's rear what I said in addition to that? Of course not. Same goes here, man.

RE: Wallace's case for ID- I think he makes a case for ID based on the apparant design of things, in addition to pointing out that most scientists come to the table with the presupposition of materialism (and so, by default must dismiss out of hand any possibilty for a designer-whatever or whoever that might be).

You might not agree, and that's fine, but to continually insult your "listeners" is not going to do you any good. And to assume it has been settled, when there are genuine, thoughtful, reasoned arguments for an alternate position, is not being charitable in the discussion that those you disagree with may actually have a good reason for thinking or believing something.

You may have your last word, but I am afraid that unless you change your attitude a bit while on this forum, you may continue to run into the same thing you have been. We may just have to agree to disagree.

God bless.

Boris said...

I'm not too settled in my own mind to hear or read valid arguments. However I've already seen and heard all the arguments people have directed at me on this blog literally hundreds of other times. What I get is the same old apolgetic arguments almost word for word taken from people like Ray Comfort, Lee Strobel, Hank, William Lane Craig - all arguments that are full of logical fallacies and easy to refute. So your claim that these arguments or at least some of them are well thought out is false. Neither the people who came up with these arguments or the people who parrot them have given them any critical thought or they wouldn't make them in the first place.

As far as liars go, your religion and holy book in 1John 2:22 call anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ a liar. So do you think I'm not a liar? I deny Jesus even existed.

Your claim that scientists come to the table with a presupposition of materialism is false. You are confusing materialism with naturalism. Your cult leaders purposely blur the distinction between subjects and scientific disciplines in order to confuse the issues. Science and scientists don't come to any table with ANY presuppositions. If there were some evidence of the kind of design creationists say there is then scientists would consider it. But there is no evidence that life is designed from the top down like pocket watches or jet airliners, things creationists mistakenly compare to biological organisms. Instead we know that life is designed from the bottom up. Intelligent Design has been refuted scientifically. If ID were really science then the people promoting this hoax would be producing results. They would be producing better medicines, better vaccines, better food crops, better poisons to protect food crops and doing more productive science than the evolutionary biologists they claim don't know what they are doing. But evolutionary scientists produce viable usable results and products every day with their knowledge of how nature structures itself through evolution by natural selection. So it is very hypocritical for you to disagree with your mouth and then run to a doctor every time you get sick and take advantage of all the other advances this avenue of science has brought us. Next time you get sick if you don't go to a faith healer to get demons cast out to cure you then we all know you trust science as much as the rest of us. You just insist on lying about it. Why should I not call you a liar?

Anonymous said...

ETERNITY MATTERS! Happy New Year every day! *friendly grin*