Thursday, December 10, 2009

Immanuel- God with Us

As we approach Christmas—we’re getting closer and closer every day—we are attempting to get people to prepare their hearts for Christmas, just as they so often prepare their homes.

Today, I want to spend just a few moments at the opening of the broadcast talking about the word “Immanuel”. In Christ, all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form. The reason we rejoice at Christmas is that the baby born to Mary and Joseph on that very first Advent was no ordinary child. As Matthew records, this baby was the ultimate fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy of Immanuel, which literally means, “God with us.” And so often that washes over us, but consider the fact that the one who spoke and the limitless universe leapt into existence, tabernacled among us in flesh. The ultimate self-revelation of God, Jesus the Christ, was and eternally is God incarnate, literally God in flesh.

Although John’s Gospel does not include a narrative of the birth and the infancy of Jesus, the doctrine of the incarnation is so aptly summed up in his introduction when he says, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” The Word became flesh and the Word made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. The clear testimony of Scripture is that in the incarnation, Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. He existed as the perfect unity in one person of a divine and human nature.

And Paul so eloquently expressed the profundity of this truth when he said to the Philippian Christians, “Your attitude should be the same as that of Jesus Christ, who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness, being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross.” As the God-man, the spotless Lamb of God lived a perfectly sinless human life. He died a sinner’s death to sufficiently atone once for all for the sins of humanity. Of course, without both natures, Christ’s payment would have been insufficient. As God, his sacrifice was sufficient to provide redemption for the sins of humankind. As man, he did what the first Adam failed to do. That’s why Paul says “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man, the many will be made righteous,” or as he explained to the Corinthians “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.”

This Christmas season as you think of the word “Immanuel”, remember that Christ came to be with us in human flesh. and we will regard Him that way for all eternity, because in the end, we’re going to have an experience that not even Adam and Eve had, the living resurrected Christ in our midst. As we learn and grow and develop without error and as forever, we will explore the glory and grandeur of the God who saved us by his grace.

Again, this Christmas season, don’t get wrapped up in the hustle and bustle, but prepare your heart, because I fear that so often we treat Christmas very much like we treat prayer. We get down on our hands and knees, and before those knees have ever touched the ground, we’re already thinking about rushing back into our frenzied lifestyle. In fact, we treat Jesus Christ, Immanuel, no different than we treat other cherished relationships. We want intimacy without the investment of quality time. Change that this Christmas season.

64 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mr. Hanegraaff,
I have a sincere question that I get when I share my faith: Did Jesus go to hell? Then they say why would a loving God send his Son to hell?
In the Bible I believe it says that Jesus went to hades. Are they two different places?

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Deak said...

To the first "Anonymous," I have actually called Hank's show about this. On the cross Jesus said "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS, I commend my spirit." There were 3 guys being crucified that day, including Jesus, and he said to one of the other guys, "TODAY, you will be with me in paradise."

The Bible does say that Jesus went to proclaim (most liekyl His victory) to the spirits in prison. I don't think He went to Hell ever but if He did it was simply to proclaim. Some will say He burned in Hell, or went to Hell in our place, or went to steal the keys to Heaven from Satan, all of which are very wrong and unscriptural. As Hank said to me on his show, "It is inaccurate to say Jesus went to Hell but it isn't heretical unless they claim it to be an essential part of the death, burial, and resurrection.

Anonymous said...

Okay thanks Deak for the info.


Here's some more questions if you don't mind:
In Acts 2:31 (NASB) it says "he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that He was neither abandoned to hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay."

And in Revelation 20:14 (NASB) it says,
"Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire, this is the second death, the lake of fire."

So from what I gather according to that is that hell and hades are two different places. Because why would hell be thrown INTO hell? But could HADES be thrown into hell?

So is hades a temporary place and is hell the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost?

Also is hades a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost? Is the abode of the saved called “paradise” and/or “Abraham's bosom?” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” according to Luke 16:26.


So from what I gather,(and correct me if I'm wrong) hell and hades are two different places and hades has two abodes, one for the lost and one for the saved?

I'd appreciate feedback from anyone with knowledge on the subject as I'm young with NOT very much knowledge on the subject.

Merry CHRISTMAS everyone!

p.s. I'd also appreciate it if someone who doesn't know to please call Mr. Hanegraaff's show as we don't get it in our area anymore. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous,

If you are sincere in your endeavor to find an answer to your question and would like a highly detailed and Scriptural response, you should examine this site:

http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/tenrsn/jds/jesus_died.html

I recommend you dive in to your study of this area with an open heart and mind, pray about it, and rely on the Word to answer your questions.

Hank and most other Calvinist-lite apologists depend heavily on man's interpretations from throughout the years. Paul told us to use the Word and to pray for revelation knowledge to flow from the Holy Ghost with our use of the Word.

Give it a try.

Anonymous said...

Thank you. I'll study it with my dad and family.

God bless and Merry CHRISTmas!:)

Anonymous said...

nice blog..................................................

Boris said...

"Therefore the L-rd will give you a sign. Behold the young woman (almah) is pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will call his name Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14)."

For two thousand years Jews have viewed the Virgin Birth myth as an oddity. The New Testament reading of Isaiah 7:14 is such a blatant mistranslation and is so wrenched from context that Jews have assured themselves that they do not need missionaries to understand their own Bible.

The Jewish rejection of "virgin birth" is based on at least ten reasons:

1) Betulah definitely means "virgin" (see Leviticus 21:14- the High Priest can marry only a virgin; Deuteronomy 22:14- a groom claims he did not find betulim, signs of virginity, in his bride). Isaiah 7:14 does not use the word betulah.

2) Almah, mentioned in Isaiah 7:14, means "young woman." It does not mean virgin (Proverbs 30:18-20 speaks of an adulterous almah!).

3) Christian claim support based on the Greek translation. In fact the Greek word for almah (Parthenos) is used to describe Dinah after she was raped (Genesis 34:2-4)!

4) Five times does Isaiah say the word betulah, but not in 7:14, which supposedly speaks of a virgin birth (23:4, 23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 62:5)!

5) Context: King Achaz is worried that he will suffer defeat by two foreign kings (7:2). Isaiah reassures the king that a woman will give birth to Immanuel (the name means: G-d is with us) . The birth of Immanuel is a "sign" of G-d's rescue (7:14-17).

Achaz will not be reassured by a "sign" that Jesus will be born centuries later. He needs G-d's salvation now.

6) Ha-almah does not mean a young woman but the young woman: someone known to Isaiah and Achaz.

7) Isaiah 7:16 says that Achaz's enemy kings will fall before the son grows up- not in Jesus' time. This prophecy was fulfilled (II Kings 16:5-9, 15:29-30).

8) 7:16 says that while the son is growing up he will "not know to reject bad and choose good." How can this refer to a divine being?

9) 7:16 says of the son, "he will eat cream and honey" (enjoy prosperity-see 7:22). When did Jesus eat cream and honey?

10) A "sign" must be visible e.g. a rainbow (Genesis 9:13). Mary's alleged virginity was not visible to anyone. Isaiah 8:18 says that children are a "sign" for that is visible.

The evidence against the Christian myth is overwhelming, yet Hank Hanegraaf persists in justifying this myth (see Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 3 pp.17-32 ). We do not fault him for offering unconvincing apologetics, for it is a hopeless task.

Anonymous said...

There's old Boris again, copying and pasting without referrence. Plagerism aside, these methods of offering alternatives to beliefs by attempting to "poke holes" in theological interpretation and syntax, won't work against faith. We've had this conversation before, Boris.

If I wanted to know what a bunch of hacks (with enough education to at least say they got some of their "ideas" from another source) thought about the possibility of Jesus not being born of a virgin, I would search for their anti-missionary BS. But I don't.

Anonymous said...

Boris how many of your other posts would I find to have been "lifted?" Good thing for you, I have other work to do.

Boris said...

Jesusneverexisted.com does huge poke holes in the Jesus myth though doesn't it Anonymous Liar? Why don't you search their anti-missionary BS liar? Could it be that the case against the existence of Jesus Christ is a slam dunk? I've repeatedly asked for evidence for your Christer godman on this blog and have yet to see a single shred of evidence to support the claim that Jesus is not a mythological figure. Would you like to show us all the best evidence you have from outside the Bible that Jesus Christ actually existed? Of course you won't because you don't HAVE any! No one does. Hahahahha ROFL!

Boris said...

Boris once again silences a loud mouth, blowhard Christian liar. How m,any more time do I have to send this creep away with his tail between his legs quaking in fear? Don't say you aren't scared Anonymous and please don't try to say you aren't afraid of me. I'm the one who has made it so you now have to spend the rest of your life trying to believe what you know ain't true. Bye bye loser.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if he stole those rants from anyone? Poor plagerizing fellow.

Anonymous said...

Wow, I guess Hanegraaff and Bor[e]is do have something in common: Plagerism.

Boris said...

Anonymous if you could refute anything I posted you would. But you can't. How impotent does that make you fell loser? Poof, another theist sees his faith destroyed by the atheist.

Anonymous said...

Boris, I feel that your posts are worthwhile and interesting. I do not agree with your viewpoint, as I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ is real, alive, and offers salvation for all who believe in Him. But I thank you for presenting your viewpoint, and I resepect your passion for what you believe. I think that we could all have a much healthier debate on these important topics without stooping to insults and sarcasm. It totally undermines one's credibility...not to mention its failure to glorify God. You are hostile toward Christ and His Gospel, Boris, but you are still here. That is good. Keep seeking and I will keep praying in love for you. Christ saved me from the darkest corner of contempt for Him...no one is outside of His love.

Anonymous said...

But Anon, they're not his thoughts. He lifts everything he posts from other sources and then doesn't give proper credit. That's plagerism.

Erin said...

I know that plagiarism is wrong. But I'm not sure that is the most important issue here, in this context and forum. Whether these are Boris' original ideas or not doesn't concern me so much...I am more interested in considering these statements as a counter-argument to our faith in Christ and all we believe, as Christians. Boris brings up some interesting points that we should ponder...not in fear or anger, but in the interest of making our Christian witness stronger. The Truth of Christ trumps all earthly wisdom, yet some things remained unrevealed to hardened hearts. Let's keep the focus on this, not on the plagiarism issue.

Erin said...

REMAIN unrevealed, not "remained"...sorry.

Boris said...

Erin you said: I do not agree with your viewpoint, as I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ is real, alive, and offers salvation for all who believe in Him.

How do you know that exactly? Have you ever worked a miracle greater than Jesus did like John 14:12 says you can? Have you ever seen another believer work a miracle greater than the Bible claims Jesus did? Did Jesus appear to you and speak to you in an audible voice? How can someone be alive if they died? Apparently Jesus simply went into some kind of suspended animation to pay for the sins of the world if he’s still alive. Where’s the great sacrifice if he’s still alive? Jesus offers salvation from what exactly? From hell something HE created. How is that saving anyone from anything? Have you ever thought about why Jesus sends people to hell? He sends them there because they don’t believe either he or hell exists. Now how is that fair may I ask? What evidence can you give me that it is possible for humans to go on living in some kind of disembodied spirit world after they die anyway? If Jesus is God then how does making a human sacrifice of himself to himself accomplish anything? If God wanted to forgive sinners why can’t he just do that? Why did God have to do something so that he may then do something else? Your God is tossed about by circumstance just like the rest of us. That’s not acting much like an all-powerful God. Since your God punishes people for not believing in him and you seem slightly concerned for my salvation how about answering all of my questions so that I may believe too?

Erin said...

Great questions...I will do my best, but I need a little time.

Erin said...

(Not sure how much one post allows, so I'll post in segments.)
Okay...I said I am going to do my best, so here goes.
Before I became a Christian 10 years ago, one of the greatest stumbling blocks for me was intellectual. I felt that Christianity was asking too much of me...asking me to suspend way too much disbelief. I felt, quite simply, that it was ridiculously insulting my intelligence to believe in Jesus, and abandon all I knew to be true, for many reasons ...some of which you bring up in your post.
I want to ask you, though, to first agree to not judge God by His followers...no matter how illogical that may sound. We are all sinners, God has no sin in Him. So, by nature we are completely unable to truly reflect His greatness. We are completely at His mercy, saved by His undeserved grace. Isaiah says that all of our righteous acts are like filthy rags. True, it is our commission to spread the Gospel, show compassion, mercy and forgiveness as He has shown us...but we are not perfect. Please don't let any bad behavior of any Christian drive you away from God. We are all guilty of this.
Secondly, I would have to preface any conversation regarding the intricacies and mysteries of God by saying that God has Himself purposely shrouded some things in mystery. He would cease to be divine if He could be completely "explained" in human terms. I am not saying this as a cop out, although it may appear that way (I used to view this as a cop out, so I understand). Any Christian who claims to have all the answers to your questions would be guilty of simplifying God and reducing Him down to something that could arguably have been created by a human mind. A dangerous concession to make. God transcends even the most astounding human intellect.

Erin said...

BUT that is not to say that we are just to say "Have faith!" and leave it at that. Again, that simplifies God . There are some answers to your questions. Boris, I am more than slightly interested in your salvation! If all heaven rejoices at the salvation of one human soul...that says something about how we should view the importance of the human soul. And to have the Truth and act selfishly possessive of it denies that very Truth.
It's important to realize, however, that the Spirit of God is what gives true knowledge and understanding of the things of God. I can tell you the Truth, but unless you have the Spirit you will not understand or agree with some things I say. Christ has promised that the Father will send the Spirit to us who believe, repent, and follow His commands.

I have not worked a miracle greater than Jesus, nor have I seen another believer do so. I think that Matthew Henry makes a good point, however, when he says that the "captivating of so great a part of the world to Christ, under such outward disadvantages" is in itself a great miracle. What worldly things have I gained from my belief in Christ? I have lost many good friends, suffered endless ridicule and insults...let's just start there. Why would I choose this ? What sense would that make...what is there to gain? The world hates Christ...to come to love Him in the face of this is itself a supernatural act.

Erin said...

Christ is not simply human, otherwise you are correct...how could He live if He died? He is fully God and fully man...In the OT, blood sacrifices were constantly required to atone for sin...Christ's blood sacrifice was enough to atone for all of mankind, for all time. He was in agony in the garden the night before His crucifixion not because He feared the impending physical pain and torture...but because He knew that, in taking on the sin of all men, He had to be separated from the Father for a short time...for the first time in eternity...and the thought of this was unbearable. This is a glimpse into how precious fellowship with the Father truly is...something we are totally unable to grasp in our human minds, but something we look forward to with all our hearts...being reunited to the Father in perfect fellowship the way He originally intended.
What does Christ save us from? The natural consequence of our sin. I look at it like this...God is perfectly good...He is, in fact, pure goodness. No good thing can exist outside of God, just like no evil can exist inside of Him. Hell is a place of complete separation from God. It's not a specialized fun-house of terror that God created out of spite and hate, as many believe. Since God cannot exist with evil, those who refuse His free gift of forgiveness and sanctification through Christ, must exist eternally separate from God. This brings God no joy, nor should it bring any Christian any joy either. Humanly speaking, it is hard for us to understand why God would allow anyone to suffer in hell...it doesn't seem fair. But, what if the county judge in your city simply let all the criminals go because he loved them and it just didn't seem nice to send them to prison? We all know the law...we choose to break it or not. We are all aware of the consequences. So who can we blame for our choices? Our ability to choose what we do or believe is a gift from God...and we are happy to accept it as a gift until, of course, we have to suffer consequences for our choices...then we want to know why God gave us a choice. God is not going to send anyone to hell "unfairly". He has made His plan of salvation clear to us.

Erin said...

I do not have any "proof" that we live eternally, or have a disembodied spirit after death. But I think we run into a problem in asking for proof, since it can't be proven that we don't have these things either. You asked if Jesus has spoken to me audibly...no He hasn't. But again, this is where I have to defer to the Spirit. Christ has communicated with me in ways I couldn't even begin to fathom before I turned to Him. But I can't make you see that. Other Christians know exactly what I mean here, but without the Spirit you will not. I am not saying this makes me inherently better than you...I am simply speaking from a different frame of reference. God loves both of us in a way that we could never love another human being...or even love God, for that matter. He wants to give you all of this...wisdom, truth, peace, and an eternity in His presence...and eternity of perfect joy.
I think that the crux of your questions center on a misunderstanding of the nature of God...he can't be related to or explained in mere human terms. Before I knew Christ, I was so guilty of wondering why God didn't do things that seemed so logical to me....so it's easy to logically determine that His claim to be all-powerful fraudulent. But my mistake was that I was assuming God and I looked at everything the same way. And could you blame me? That was the only viewpoint I knew. I didn't put this restriction on other people....yet I put it on God. CS Lewis is good for putting this in perspective, by the way. God's ways are not our ways.
I'll end by saying that faith is not some convenient catch-all that simply fills in the gaps where we have no answers. It is from God, and it reminds me of that truth...that God's ways are not my ways. It is knowing that my human mind is unable to resolve so many of the things of God, but that God is faithful to His many promises.
While you may not see it this way, I believe that the Holy Spirit is working in you to make you seek the Truth. I sincerely hope you find it...and I mean that in all seriousness, Boris. I know I can't save you any more than I could save myself...but I know that with God, all things are possible.

Boris said...

Erin,
Thanks for the detailed response. I have responded to everything you said point by point.

Erin said: …Before I became a Christian 10 years ago, one of the greatest stumbling blocks for me was intellectual. I felt that Christianity was asking too much of me...asking me to suspend way too much disbelief. I felt, quite simply, that it was ridiculously insulting my intelligence to believe in Jesus, and abandon all I knew to be true, for many reasons ...some of which you bring up in your post.

Boris says: What exactly is wrong with this? First, it’s at odds with the healthy belief formation process. It stagnates and undermines the healthy process just when it could be most beneficial to reflecting on our core beliefs and values. Fear, not curiosity, is the driving force. By representing as evil disbelief in any of a long and specific list of doctrines, the factors involved in the religious belief formation process cause us to disengage with the normal and healthy creative process of belief generation and revision. Persons attending a religious ceremony are made to fear the prospect that something else might strike them as true. The mind loses its flexibility… The beautiful thing about the human mind is undermined. - Neil Van Leeuwen

Erin said: I want to ask you, though, to first agree to not judge God by His followers...no matter how illogical that may sound. We are all sinners, God has no sin in Him. So, by nature we are completely unable to truly reflect His greatness.

Boris says: Since when is murder not a sin? When God kills people? The Bible God is a mass murderer and a megalomaniac. This kind of “greatness” is not something I want to reflect. If this God really did exist I would want nothing to do with him.

We are completely at His mercy, saved by His undeserved grace. Isaiah says that all of our righteous acts are like filthy rags. True, it is our commission to spread the Gospel, show compassion, mercy and forgiveness as He has shown us...but we are not perfect. Please don't let any bad behavior of any Christian drive you away from God. We are all guilty of this.

Boris says: This religious babble about Christians not being perfect just forgiven is a smokescreen for the vilification of unbelievers. Unbelievers will be judged because presumably, they’ve done something morally wrong by not being able to believe other people when they talk about things they cannot know. This implies that accepting un-falsifiable hypotheses and unsubstantiated religious claims without evidence to support them is moral and a sign of righteousness. It isn’t.

Erin said: Secondly, I would have to preface any conversation regarding the intricacies and mysteries of God by saying that God has Himself purposely shrouded some things in mystery. He would cease to be divine if He could be completely "explained" in human terms. I am not saying this as a cop out, although it may appear that way (I used to view this as a cop out, so I understand). Any Christian who claims to have all the answers to your questions would be guilty of simplifying God and reducing Him down to something that could arguably have been created by a human mind. A dangerous concession to make. God transcends even the most astounding human intellect.

Boris says: I disagree. It’s a very dangerous concession to make to assume that there is a God that transcends even the most astounding human intellect. This is why as long as we have people believing in God we will have people telling us that they know what God wants from us, how God expects us to live and most importantly what God wants us to believe. For example we have people telling us that God doesn’t approve of abortions, the new healthcare legislation, the national debt, the elimination of the gold standard and so on. How do they know this? There’s certainly nothing in the Bible that could be used to support these claims.

Boris said...

Erin said: BUT that is not to say that we are just to say "Have faith!" and leave it at that. Again, that simplifies God . There are some answers to your questions. Boris, I am more than slightly interested in your salvation! If all heaven rejoices at the salvation of one human soul...that says something about how we should view the importance of the human soul. And to have the Truth and act selfishly possessive of it denies that very Truth.

Boris says: To claim to have the “truth” is arrogant enough but then to not be able to give even a tiny shred of evidence to back up that claim is intellectually dishonest. You don’t have the truth and as I will demonstrate below you don’t even know what that word means anymore, if you ever did.

Erin said: It's important to realize, however, that the Spirit of God is what gives true knowledge and understanding of the things of God. I can tell you the Truth, but unless you have the Spirit you will not understand or agree with some things I say. Christ has promised that the Father will send the Spirit to us who believe, repent, and follow His commands.

Boris says: “They are from the world; therefore what they say is from the world, and world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. “From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” – (1John 4:5-6 NRSV); the tautology in this passage is absurd when you think about it but it is deceptive and powerful if you can’t and don’t because you fear for salvation. Basically it says, “We are right and the world is wrong because we say so.”

Erin said: I have not worked a miracle greater than Jesus, nor have I seen another believer do so. I think that Matthew Henry makes a good point, however, when he says that the "captivating of so great a part of the world to Christ, under such outward disadvantages" is in itself a great miracle.

Boris says: How is the world captivated though? Adult unbelievers almost never convert and you know this. Children are indoctrinated with the Christian dogmatic superstitions before they’ve learned how to think critically about things. Once they get older many people wind up leaving the church and rejecting their religion. The Bible even has an excuse or apologetic for this claiming there will be a great falling away from the faith in the end times. Of course there has always been a great falling away from the faith because we’ve always been and will always be in the end times. But the flight from Christianity has never been like this before. 3 out of 4 Christian college students reject their faith before they graduate college. Who is working THAT miracle? Satan?

Erin said: What worldly things have I gained from my belief in Christ? I have lost many good friends, suffered endless ridicule and insults...let's just start there. Why would I choose this ? What sense would that make...what is there to gain? The world hates Christ...to come to love Him in the face of this is itself a supernatural act.

Boris says: The world doesn’t hate Christ. Most of us just don’t believe there is such a being. You can’t hate something you don’t think exists. Do you hate Allah, the god of Islam? Or do you simply think he doesn’t exist?

Boris said...

Erin said: Christ is not simply human, otherwise you are correct...how could He live if He died? He is fully God and fully man...In the OT, blood sacrifices were constantly required to atone for sin...Christ's blood sacrifice was enough to atone for all of mankind, for all time.

Boris says: Blood sacrifices were required to atone for sin in all the ancient religions. There’s nothing special about that. How are we to believe that the creator of hundreds of billions of galaxies each with hundreds of billions of stars and who knows what else in them got some kind of satisfaction from the smell of burning goat flesh and seeing a defenseless animal’s blood splattered on an altar? This sounds like an ancient tribal deity dreamed up by backward superstitious animal sacrificing primitives, not a real God.

Erin said: He was in agony in the garden the night before His crucifixion not because He feared the impending physical pain and torture...but because He knew that, in taking on the sin of all men, He had to be separated from the Father for a short time...for the first time in eternity...and the thought of this was unbearable.

Boris says: That just doesn’t make any sense. If Jesus IS God then how can he be separated from himself? Why would he pray to himself? I’ll ask again, how does making a blood sacrifice of himself TO himself then enable Jesus/God to forgive sin exactly? Why can’t an all-powerful God just do whatever he wants?

Erin said: This is a glimpse into how precious fellowship with the Father truly is...something we are totally unable to grasp in our human minds, but something we look forward to with all our hearts...being reunited to the Father in perfect fellowship the way He originally intended. What does Christ save us from? The natural consequence of our sin.

Boris says: There are plenty of natural consequences in society for unacceptable behavior. What you are positing is a supernatural or magical consequence and not for sin either but for the supposed crime of unbelief.

Erin said: I look at it like this...God is perfectly good...He is, in fact, pure goodness. No good thing can exist outside of God, just like no evil can exist inside of Him. Hell is a place of complete separation from God. It's not a specialized fun-house of terror that God created out of spite and hate, as many believe.

Boris says: What purpose does hell serve exactly? The only people who wind up there didn’t know of its existence.

Erin said: Since God cannot exist with evil, those who refuse His free gift of forgiveness and sanctification through Christ, must exist eternally separate from God.

Boris says: Who made this rule about God not being able to exist with evil may I ask?

Boris said...

Erin said: This brings God no joy, nor should it bring any Christian any joy either.

Boris says: Then why doesn’t God just return a “sinner’s soul” to a state of non-existence, as it was before their birth or to a location where they would not undergo pointless torture? Sadistic torture is not required to separate the “lost souls” from the “saved souls.” People are supposedly in hell because while they lived they rejected Jesus. In other words they are in hell to be punished for his or her past and not for some future beneficial effects. Punishment in hell is therefore an end in itself and admittedly not implemented for any beneficial purpose. The unavoidable conclusion is that the reason for Hell’s torture is simply to torture as a purposeless and vengeful end in itself. If you say that God is forced to torture humanity against his will you are denying God’s omnipotence and absolute authority. If you claim God wants to torture humanity you are denying God’s benevolence and your own claim that “God loves both of us in a way that we could never love another human being...or even love God, for that matter.” You must admit God gets some kind of twisted sadistic satisfaction from torturing people who had mistaken religious beliefs while they were alive or worse, no religious beliefs at all or else he wouldn’t do it. Obviously the only reason you worship this monster is because you are afraid not to. Just be honest enough to admit that please.

Erin said: Humanly speaking, it is hard for us to understand why God would allow anyone to suffer in hell...it doesn't seem fair.

Boris says: That’s because it ISN’T fair. Half the people who have died in the last 2000 years and about half the people alive today never heard of Jesus Christ or the Christian scheme of salvation. God doesn’t send people to hell who refuse “His free gift of forgiveness and sanctification through Christ.” He sends them there because they either never heard about it or heard about it from people who seemed dishonest or delusional or both. Christians often ask me what I will tell God when I meet him. I usually say that I’m going to tell God he really needs to get some better spokespeople on Earth.

Erin said: But, what if the county judge in your city simply let all the criminals go because he loved them and it just didn't seem nice to send them to prison? We all know the law...we choose to break it or not. We are all aware of the consequences.

Boris says: This analogy fails because people in prison knowingly broke the law. People who are supposedly in hell or going there don’t understand the consequences because the only people who wind up in hell don’t believe such a place really existed.

Erin said: So who can we blame for our choices? Our ability to choose what we do or believe is a gift from God...and we are happy to accept it as a gift until, of course, we have to suffer consequences for our choices...then we want to know why God gave us a choice.

Boris says: That is simply not true and it’s the fallacy Paschal’s Wager is based on. People can’t just decide to believe something that all the available data tells them is impossible. They have to be frightened out of their minds and ability to reason as you clearly have been into believing in the impossible: “Reason should be destroyed in all Christians” – Martin Luther. Should be? It must be.

Boris said...

Erin said: God is not going to send anyone to hell "unfairly". He has made His plan of salvation clear to us.

Boris says: That is just not true. Millions of people are born and die without having this plan of salvation made clear to them. How do you explain that? Christians are so narrow-minded they never consider facts like this and we can see that something like this obviously doesn’t matter to them anyway. And where is this plan of salvation anyway? Why it can be found in only one place, the King James Bible, a book that says the earth is flat, never moves and had vegetation on it BEFORE the sun and moon even existed. With those kinds of ridiculous claims in it why should we believe any of the other claims in the Bible?

Erin said: I do not have any "proof" that we live eternally, or have a disembodied spirit after death. But I think we run into a problem in asking for proof, since it can't be proven that we don't have these things either.

Boris says: Unbelief is the natural position to take on anything until something has been proven. We can’t prove the Easter Bunny or leprechauns don’t exist either. But we can make safe assumptions based on available data that magical egg delivering rabbits, little dancing Irish elfs and the possibility that biological organisms can somehow go on existing after death do not exist. What you are doing is offering the same crap that William Lane Craig uses in debates that so impresses his followers: The tortured logic that we should believe things because they are either possible or can’t be disproved. That kind of thinking can be used to support belief in ESP, UFO abductions and the Tooth fairy.

Erin said: You asked if Jesus has spoken to me audibly...no He hasn't. But again, this is where I have to defer to the Spirit. Christ has communicated with me in ways I couldn't even begin to fathom before I turned to Him. But I can't make you see that. Other Christians know exactly what I mean here, but without the Spirit you will not. I am not saying this makes me inherently better than you...I am simply speaking from a different frame of reference.

Boris says: People of other religions make the exact same claims. I can’t accept claims from you as evidence for your beliefs that you would not accept from people of other religions as evidence for theirs. Why should I? Because your sacred writings are holy and theirs profane?

Erin said: God loves both of us in a way that we could never love another human being...or even love God, for that matter.

Boris says: Your thoughts are being controlled by the distortion of certain words used to describe reality. The way the word “love” is used by Christian evangelists is a potent example of manipulation through the distortion of language. In Christian-speak love translates to obedience: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments… He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me” (John 14:15,21). Love is removed from the realm of human affections and disparaged while agape – love that is from God is held up as ideal. This appeals to people who are disappointed in their human relationships but has nothing to do with how we usually think of love.

Boris said...

Erin said: He wants to give you all of this...wisdom, truth, peace, and an eternity in His presence...and eternity of perfect joy.

Boris says: As with the word “love” in Christian circles these words you have used are used in unique ways, with distinct meanings and for a specific purpose. For believers the word “wisdom” is a tautology. Human wisdom is disparaged and all true wisdom is said to come from God. So anything God does is automatically deemed just, wise and righteous even though it seems wrong to humans. The word “truth” doesn’t refer to facts or sincerity but only correct scriptural doctrine: “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?” (1John 2:22). In order to control someone through their emotions feelings also have to be redefined. Joy is a feeling we all desire. But if joy is defined as being closer to God and God is unhappy (as he apparently always is) then the way to have joy is to be unhappy. Therefore joy is actually suffering so you can grow closer to God. The words peace, life, death, justice, bondage, liberty, hate, will, grace, witness, righteousness are other words that are torn away from their actual meanings and redefined and then eventually through repetition the believer’s thoughts become controlled by these words with these new specific meanings. Edward Cohen, in his book, “The Mind of the Bible-Believer (1988) calls it “logicide,” the killing of words. He said, “In Christianity some key words that are also important in human experience generally, are redefined and become so overburdened with ponderous, contrived, and dissonant meanings that they are put out of commission entirely as vehicles for articulate thought or communication.” We aren’t even speaking the same language Erin. I use language to express my thoughts and your religious leaders use language to control yours. That’s what is really going on.

Erin said: I think that the crux of your questions center on a misunderstanding of the nature of God...he can't be related to or explained in mere human terms.

Boris says: “God is an invention of man. So the nature of God is only a shallow mystery. The deep mystery is the nature of man” Nanrei Kobori (1918-1998).

Erin said: Before I knew Christ, I was so guilty of wondering why God didn't do things that seemed so logical to me....so it's easy to logically determine that His claim to be all-powerful fraudulent.

Boris says: “If God wants us to do a thing, he should make his wishes sufficiently clear. Sensible people will wait till he has done this before paying much attention to him” – Samuel Butler (1835-1902)

Erin said: But my mistake was that I was assuming God and I looked at everything the same way. And could you blame me?

Boris says: No because the Bible says we are created in the image of God so it follows that we would look at things pretty much the same way as God does. But since we don’t do that or a lot of other things God does, it is quite false to say we are created in the image of God isn’t it?

Erin said: That was the only viewpoint I knew. I didn't put this restriction on other people....yet I put it on God. CS Lewis is good for putting this in perspective, by the way. God's ways are not our ways.

Boris says: C.S. Lewis putting something IN perspective? Are you kidding me? C.S. Lewis is the apologist who came up with one of the dumbest false dichotomies ever posited. He said either Jesus was who he said he was or a liar and an imposter - take your pick. As if those two things are the only possibilities. There are several other possibilities the most plausible one being that Jesus simply never even existed. Lewis was too blinded and his mind so narrowed by religious dogma that he couldn’t even conceive of that possibility. Have you ever read Screwtape? C.S. Lewis was a babbling idiot.

Anonymous said...

Erin said: I'll end by saying that faith is not some convenient catch-all that simply fills in the gaps where we have no answers.

Boris says: “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so” – Mark Twain (1835-1910). “Skepticism is the highest duty and blind faith the one unpardonable sin” – Thomas Henry Huxley (1825-1895)

Erin said: It is from God, and it reminds me of that truth...that God's ways are not my ways.
Boris says: “The vast majority of personal religious beliefs can be accurately predicted based solely on the beliefs of one’s parents or the culture on is raised in… Religionists should ask themselves, ‘Are my religious beliefs based on rationality and evidence or indoctrination?” – John Bice, American writer, religion columnist, and noted beer expert. If faith was from God why can a person’s religion almost always determined by where they were born?

Erin said: It is knowing that my human mind is unable to resolve so many of the things of God, but that God is faithful to His many promises.

Boris says: Not all of them. "In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates." —Genesis 15:18.This was no small promise. The territory promised to the Jews in this verse would encompass not just the modern-day borders of Israel, but would contain most or all of the modern nations of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq. Needless to say, this promise was not kept. "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." - Matthew 10:23.

Erin said: While you may not see it this way, I believe that the Holy Spirit is working in you to make you seek the Truth. I sincerely hope you find it...and I mean that in all seriousness,

Boris. I know I can't save you any more than I could save myself...but I know that with God, all things are possible.
There isn’t anything you or anyone else could say to make me believe there is a God, that the Bible records any historical occurrences or the actions or words of any real historical figures including Jesus Christ. Historical narratives never contain word for word dialogs anyway. I do not believe such a person ever existed. There isn’t any evidence that he did and the proof of that is in the fact that even in the first century there were people claiming no such person ever existed. The whole purpose of the 2nd book of John is to admonish followers not to listen to the many people who were telling them that Jesus never existed:
“Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.” - 2 John 1:7-11

Boris said...

Soon after Jesus allegedly lived and died there were many people claiming that he didn’t exist at all. Rather than approach these unbelievers in a rational manner and present them with overwhelming evidence that Jesus really had existed just a short time ago, and all the miraculous things said to have happened really did happen, the biblical author instead admonishes his readers to stay away from these people.

I studied Ancient Greek in high school and also at a private Christian college and have I studied the New Testament very thoroughly. I already know what the gospels are about and they are not even close to having the intended meaning Christians think they do. You can’t understand the gospels unless you are familiar with solar mythology. The ancients didn’t have television, movies and books so at night they stared at the stars. They made up stories about what they saw going on in the sky. Ancient Near Eastern mythology is full of these stories and all the ancient religions including Judaism, Christianity and Islam are based on these stories. Jesus began his one-year ministry by visiting John who baptized with water. The Sun begins its yearly journey by visiting Aquarius, the water bearer. The Sun leaves Aquarius, goes below the horizon, and meets Pisces, the two fish. Jesus leaves John, who is put in prison and meets Simon and Andrew, two fishermen. The parallels between the gospel events and solar mythology are very easy to spot and continue throughout the story until the end. The mistake most people make is assuming a historical figure is behind the gospels. There isn’t. Christians are doing the same thing the ancients did thousands of years ago when agriculture was first invented: worshiping the Sun, not the Son.

Erin said...

I sincerely appreciate the time you have spent explaining your viewpoint to me...seriously, I've not found too many unbelievers who can articulate their beliefs quite so thoroughly. I think, however, that a continued debate on these topics will result in and endless ping-pong of "I say this, you say that"...and will not result in any intellectual satisfaction (at least not on my part, I can't speak for you). Our lack of virtually any common ground precludes us from reaching any resolution on any debatable point...but I'm not sure either of us was hoping to reach any resolution, so that's okay.

Please correct me if I am misrepresenting you here....you believe that my Truth (Christianity) is a lie, based on an endless string of logical falsehoods, language misappropriations, fear-mongering, and mind control...and you deny the validity of any shred of evidence ever presented in defense of the Christian faith. You say that to claim to have the truth is arrogant, yet you also claim to have the truth. I am concerned with some of your logic, for example, when you say that (in regards to Jesus Christ ) you "don't believe that such a person ever existed. There isn't any evidence that he did and the proof of that is in the fact that even in the first century there were people claiming no such person ever existed." This is very shaky "proof". There are plenty of people who claim the persecution of the Jews under Hitler never happened. Using your argument...the fact that there are some who claim this is enough to prove it didn't happen? I find your logic as problematic as you find mine.

I believe that your truth is a lie, based on evidence that you don't consider valid. I believe that you have an erroneous understanding of the complexities of my Truth, but I don't think that a clear understanding of the complexities can be achieved without an agreement on the fundamentals (this goes for both sides). You said "There isn’t anything you or anyone else could say to make me believe there is a God, that the Bible records any historical occurrences or the actions or words of any real historical figures including Jesus Christ." On this point you are completely accurate...there isn't anything anyone can do or say to make you (or anyone) believe.

Please don't read sarcasm or spite into the following questions...I am not being sarcastic, despite how I know it looks. I just don't know how else to word it to convey a tone of genuine curiosity..that's all. You know that a Christian is compelled by love of the Truth and obedience to the Father to contend for the faith that sustains us. I wonder (in sincerity) what your motive is when you engage me (or any other Christian) in a defense of your truth. Is it because you are genuinely pained by what you perceive to be grave ignorance and deception? Are YOU trying to save ME? Is this motivated by compassion and desire to help your fellow misguided man, or is it purely a means of sadistic entertainment for you...like shooting fish in a bucket?

It appears that we have both failed to enlighten the other, but that's pretty much historically consistent with the age-old debate between Christians and atheists. I truly appreciate the dialogue, though. No Christian is going to be able to defend the faith to you in a purely concrete and intellectual way, removing all aspects of the supernatural. It simply can't be done, but you know this. I will continue to enjoy your posts on this blog, however...one request....please don't assume that any given Christian's lack of a compelling enough answer or explanation to any of your questions necessarily means that no answer exists.

Boris said...

Erin said: I sincerely appreciate the time you have spent explaining your viewpoint to me......but I'm not sure either of us was hoping to reach any resolution, so that's okay.

Boris says: I accomplish at least one thing in these debates and that is that I show there are very good reasons for atheism, evolution, criticism of the Bible or whatever to people who have been told there aren’t. This plants a tiny seed of doubt in their minds not about their faith but about their religious cult leaders and either their willingness to hide the truth about certain things or their ignorance of them or both. You might be surprised how may Hank Hanegraaf clones there are out there. Creationists cling to their religious cult leaders and believe every word they say. Then I come along and show the emperor has no clothes or in Hank’s case is a pathological liar and a man whose show is nothing more than a shameless infomercial for his own apologetic literature.

Erin said: Please correct me if I am misrepresenting you here....you believe that my Truth (Christianity) is a lie, based on an endless string of logical falsehoods, language misappropriations, fear-mongering, and mind control...and you deny the validity of any shred of evidence ever presented in defense of the Christian faith.

Boris says: Christianity isn’t based on an endless string of logical falsehoods, language misappropriations, fear mongering, and mind-control - it’s supported by those things. It needs to be because Christianity is based on a misinterpretation of some particular versions of an ancient solar myth as historical and biographical narratives. Therefore there isn’t and couldn’t any evidence to support such a gross misunderstanding of mythology as history and fictional characters as real people. I’ve seen what apologists use as evidence to support their claims and it’s ludicrous. Needless to say none of it would stand up in a court of law not to mention any kind of unbiased scrutiny.

Erin said: You say that to claim to have the truth is arrogant, yet you also claim to have the truth.

Boris says: I may claim to know the truth about certain things but I don’t claim to have some kind of absolute truth the way you do. I do know the truth about the origins of Christianity and I’ve briefly described them to you twice now.

Erin said: I am concerned with some of your logic, for example, when you say that (in regards to Jesus Christ ) you "don't believe that such a person ever existed. There isn't any evidence that he did and the proof of that is in the fact that even in the first century there were people claiming no such person ever existed." This is very shaky "proof". There are plenty of people who claim the persecution of the Jews under Hitler never happened. Using your argument...the fact that there are some who claim this is enough to prove it didn't happen? I find your logic as problematic as you find mine.

Boris says: When a person debates fundamentalist Christians it is apparent after a short time that the fundamentalists all get their apologetics from the same sources. So when you debate with one fundy you are debating with all of them. Whenever I say that there isn’t any evidence that Jesus Christ even existed I know that the response will be something about some people also denying the Holocaust. What website did you see that argument on exactly? This analogy doesn’t work because we have ample evidence that Hitler persecuted the Jews including living eyewitnesses, and we have no evidence that Jesus Christ or any of his disciples ever existed. We also have Christian apologists denying that the root cause of Holocaust was Christian fundamentalism and that Hitler was a Christian. Denying those facts is no less absurd than denying the Holocaust really happened. The real Holocaust deniers are the Christians. They did it.

Anonymous said...

Erin said: I believe that your truth is a lie, based on evidence that you don't consider valid.

Boris says: You’re welcome to present your best evidence and reasons to believe right here. But you probably already have and you’ve seen very good reasons why sensible people won’t buy them too.

Erin said: I believe that you have an erroneous understanding of the complexities of my Truth, but I don't think that a clear understanding of the complexities can be achieved without an agreement on the fundamentals (this goes for both sides).

Boris says: As far as your concerned there is only one true religion. None of the other religions are true and the reason the members of these religions don’t know this is because they’ve been misled by the doctrines and leaders of their religion. Only those of us outside of religious cults can know that they are false.

Erin said: You said "There isn’t anything you or anyone else could say to make me believe there is a God, that the Bible records any historical occurrences or the actions or words of any real historical figures including Jesus Christ." On this point you are completely accurate...there isn't anything anyone can do or say to make you (or anyone) believe.

Boris says: Not true. Other people, whether you care to admit it or not, were able to say and or do things that made you believe. Your statement is just an excuse for why other people haven’t convinced me to adopt your particular set of religious superstitions and doctrines.

Erin said: Please don't read sarcasm or spite into the following questions… I wonder (in sincerity) what your motive is when you engage me (or any other Christian) in a defense of your truth. Is it because you are genuinely pained by what you perceive to be grave ignorance and deception?

Boris says: Yes that is one reason. People suffering from religious delusions make bad life decisions like in the voting booths for one example or walking into a church and shooting people for another. They are also susceptible to other kinds of scams that end up causing problems for more people than just themselves. I could go on.

Erin said: Are YOU trying to save ME? Is this motivated by compassion and desire to help your fellow misguided man, or is it purely a means of sadistic entertainment for you...like shooting fish in a bucket?

Boris says: Actually both. I’m trying to get people who have been told not to question certain things to question these things and very carefully. I try to write forcefully enough to make people think. If a person is a jerk like this Anonymous creep then yes I do like shooting fish like him in a bucket. It’s even easier than that though. P.J. O’Rourke said, “Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope.” It isn’t really fair.

Erin said: It appears that we have both failed to enlighten the other, but that's pretty much historically consistent with the age-old debate between Christians and atheists.

Boris says: This is because Christians can always invoke the supernatural to explain what they don’t understand. Seemingly valid criticisms of your faith can be explained away as just more of Satan’s lies. We aren’t on an even playing field in a debate because we atheists can’t invoke magic to explain things. We have to figure out the real explanations for things.

Erin said: I truly appreciate the dialogue, though. No Christian is going to be able to defend the faith to you in a purely concrete and intellectual way, removing all aspects of the supernatural.

Boris says: Exactly and I don’t believe in the supernatural.

Boris said...

Erin said: It simply can't be done, but you know this. I will continue to enjoy your posts on this blog, however...one request....please don't assume that any given Christian's lack of a compelling enough answer or explanation to any of your questions necessarily means that no answer exists.

Boris says: It’s not just any given Christian. I’ve seen all the apologetic arguments and taken the time to figure out why they aren’t any good. I’d really like to see some new ones. Debating with a biblical fundamentalist is actually really easy, because they only have a few standard arguments, and haven't come up with any new ones for about 1000 years or so. These standard arguments have been published in countless books, and a practiced debater can recall them instantaneously. All of their arguments are ridiculous though and easily refuted. I’m not going to change your mind, since believers don’t base their beliefs on a rational study of the evidence. But anyone else who is not so indoctrinated likely won’t be at all after reading my posts. My posts are for the impartial observers, casual passersby and innocent bystanders. They clearly demonstrate the weakness of Christian arguments. Especially the ludicrous ones Hank makes.

Deak said...

So this is all about you trying to get people to vote the way YOU think they should?

Boris said...

Deak,
False beliefs don’t do anyone any good and false religious beliefs can cause a myriad of problems besides just electing incompetent public officials. I don’t want people to vote the way I think they should I just want them to think before they vote. People who take Rush Limbaugh and the other neo-con media maggots or their preacher seriously are NOT thinking.

Anonymous said...

Rush Limbaugh has more intelligence in his little finger than you could ever hope for, Boris. Plus, Rush doesn't plagerize his arguments. Thanks, anonymous, for pointing out boris's plagerism. I went back through his posts and found other examples.

I'm glad I never took him seriously.

Boris said...

Sour grapes Anonymous loser. It figures the impotent (the reason he keeps getting divorced) drug addicted fat slob ass hat who is the laughingstock of all of the media maggots would be your hero. Viagra would only make him taller anyway. I have successfully demonstrated the insurmountable problems with your religion that claims not to be a religion but still demands religious tax exemptions. ROFL! That’s just one of the many problems. The others are that I have shown the Christian God could not possibly exist, the Bible is of human origin, the gospels are based on solar mythology not historical realities and that Jesus Christ never existed. All your whining won’t change those facts. Again if you could refute anything I’ve posted you would. Now go look at how red your face is in the mirror. It’s okay to cry. You big baby. Go tell Jesus on me. Hahahaha.

Anonymous said...

Boris,
I have a few questions: Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
Have you ever told a lie, stolen anything, used God's name in vain, or ever hated anyone(Jesus said that if you have hatred in you heart you are a murderer)?

If you have done these things God see's you as a lying, thief, and a blasphemous murderer at heart.

If God were to judge you by the Ten Commandments (those were only four out of ten) would you be innocent or guilty on Judgment Day? Would He send you to Heaven or Hell?

If Hell, does that concern you?
It should, because Hell is a TERRIBLE place "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth(Matt. 13:42), and where"the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched(Mark 9:48).

God doesn't want that for you. So He sent his Son Jesus Christ to earth in the form of man to suffer and die for yours and my sins. And on the third day He rose and forever defeated death. And all that He requires of you is that you repent, turn from your sins, and TRUST in JESUS CHRIST for SALVATION.

Please rethink where you will spend eternity. Here is a GREAT site: http://www.needgod.com/

I will be praying that you will see your NEED for a savior(Jesus Christ).

Thank you for reading this and God Bless.

Boris said...

Dear Delusional Brainwashed Christian,
I have a few questions: Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
Have you ever told a lie, stolen anything, used God's name in vain, or ever hated anyone(Jesus said that if you have hatred in you heart you are a murderer)?

Boris says: I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve seen creationist ass hat Ray Comfort’s stupid arguments. Calling hate murder just won’t make it so. We humans define the words in our language. They aren’t redefined by the dogma of a particular religion. Hate is hate and murder is murder and Jesus Christ never existed anyway.

If you have done these things God see's you as a lying, thief, and a blasphemous murderer at heart.

Boris says: So what? That just means God can’t see things the way they really are. Your God must be a delusional old fart then. I see the Christian God as an unbelievable ass hole anyway.

If God were to judge you by the Ten Commandments (those were only four out of ten) would you be innocent or guilty on Judgment Day? Would He send you to Heaven or Hell?

Boris says: The Ten Commandments supposedly came from a magical talking bunch of vegetation. ROFL! Anyone who believes that story is a retard. Archaeologists and historians have proved that all the Hebrew laws were taken from other older cultures. The Ten Commandments are very anti-American because they demand the worship of only one God in a nation founded upon religious freedom. That’s why we atheists are having this evil document banned from all public displays in the United States. That’s why we atheists will force publishers to put warning labels on Bibles in the very near future. There is no Judgment Day, heaven or hell and anyone who believes these things exist is a religiously brainwashed foolish moron.

If Hell, does that concern you?
It should, because Hell is a TERRIBLE place "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth(Matt. 13:42), and where"the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched(Mark 9:48).

Boris says: If you had any brains you would realize that hell doesn’t scare anyone but Christians. They’re the only people who think this absurd place actually exists. How stupid do you have to be to not be able to understand that? You’re dumber than Hank Hanegraaf. And this is what destroys your religious dogma absolutely. Supposedly the only people who wind up in hell do so because they didn’t think there was a hell, proving that the Christian God is a cruel monster. On your knees woman. Worship your holy monster. Hahaha

God doesn't want that for you. So He sent his Son Jesus Christ to earth in the form of man to suffer and die for yours and my sins. And on the third day He rose and forever defeated death. And all that He requires of you is that you repent, turn from your sins, and TRUST in JESUS CHRIST for SALVATION.

Boris says: I already proved that the gospels are based on solar mythology, not historical people and occurrences. But Christian dogma insists that Jesus IS God. So please tell me how a God sacrificing himself TO himself then enables this God to then forgive sin. You people never stop to think about just how stupid and untenable your beliefs really are.

Please rethink where you will spend eternity. Here is a GREAT site: http://www.needgod.com/

Boris says: A million years from now I will be in the same state I was in a million years ago. That’s a fact supported by science. Here is a much better site: Jesusneverexisted.com.

Boris said...

I will be praying that you will see your NEED for a savior(Jesus Christ).

Boris says: One of the most condescending things a theist can do to an atheist is to make a point of announcing that they'll be praying for us. Atheists don't believe in the power of prayer, but even theists can't think that prayer will be more effective for having announced. So what's the purpose? Some say that it's to express well-wishes, but people say that they'll pray for someone when the person is sick or having trouble. One way or another, the theist appears to be expressing superiority over atheists in a passive-aggressive manner. That suggests they weren't interested in serious conversation to begin with. - By Austin Cline, originally on about.com
Thank you for reading this and God Bless.

Boris says: God can kiss my ass. If your God did exist I still would want nothing to do with him. But there is no God. Wake up. This is the 21rst century. We educated humans have moved way past believing in magical fairies.

Anonymous said...

Starting to source some of your material, boris? 'Bout time. You're on a fool's errand buddy.

Anonymous said...

Boris,
Please use CIVIL and appropriate language on this blog of Mr. Hanegraaff's. And I won't try argue with you because the Bible warns against that(it's not that I can't prove that God exists, which I CAN, but it's that some peoples hearts are just hardened). I also thank you for the "complements" as being "dumber than Hank Hanegraaff" is quite SMART!:o)
BTW, I look up to Mr. Hanegraaff as one who KNOWS where he is going, and what his purpose is on earth.

As I warned you what Hell is like, if my eyes meet yours on Judgment Day I will be innocent and free of your blood. The blood will be on your own head.

God Bless and have a Happy New Year!

Boris said...

What’s so funny about your threat of hell is that you’re in just as much danger of meeting Allah upon death and being cast into the Muslim hell as anyone else is in being sent to your version of hell. Think about that for a while. If you or anyone else could prove that God exists this would have been done a long time ago. The fact is that science - the study of nature, has eliminated the possibility that any god exists other than the god of the deist. Science has shown that the God of the Bible does not exist by falsifying the claims in the Bible. And again I already proved Jesus Christ never existed and that the gospels are based on solar mythology. Have fun sun worshiper.

Deak said...

Now disprove Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism.

Boris said...

Deak, Krishna, Buddha and Mohammad never existed. But you are doing what all religious liars do which is shifting the burden of proof. The burden of proof is on the people making the outrageous claims not on those of us too intelligent to believe them. All religious claims are outrageous and as untrue as any lie ever told n this planet, ESPECIALLY all Christian claims. Only an idiot believes anything a Christian says.

Anonymous said...

Boris says:
Boris once again silences a loud mouth, blowhard Christian liar. How m,any more time do I have to send this creep away with his tail between his legs quaking in fear? Don't say you aren't scared Anonymous and please don't try to say you aren't afraid of me. I'm the one who has made it so you now have to spend the rest of your life trying to believe what you know ain't true. Bye bye loser.

I say:
What if you are wrong? I am a Christian and try to live a good life. If I die tomorrow and you are right, I will be dead...just dead...nothing. But, what if you die tomorrow and I am right...what if there is a GOD? You won't just be dead. Eternal life will be begin and it won't be good.
Does that scare you? Do you think about that? I'm not saying you should turn to GOD just because there might be a hell and you don't want to go there. It's just that I often wonder about those who didn't believe who have now died. Are they screaming out to the ones they loved...BELIEVE!

Anonymous said...

Matthew 5:11
Thank you Boris, you've caused us to be blessed.

Anonymous said...

Boris,

You WILL also answer for EVERY foul word, EVERY sin, and ALL that you have EVER done on Judgment Day.

I hope and pray that BEFORE that Day comes, you will see your NEED for a Savior!

Anonymous said...

This song explains something which Boris will never change. Even better, it's sung here by someone who faced the enemy on a secular TV show, and won by a significant margin proving there are many more of "us" than there are of "them."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgTmv1nzK7c

Anonymous said...

I usually get the impression that Boris tries to convince himself more than us. I think someones tugging at his heart. Paul killed Christians in his time but then became the writer of 2/3 of the New Testament. People like Hank, Lee Strobel,and Josh McDowell are atheists turned Christian. Anything's possible, especially with God.

Boris said...

Anonymous,
I took the time to make a detailed response to your posts. Please pay attention and consider what I’ve said. I have explained why your arguments are unconvincing and the fallacies they are based on. Please don’t make these same arguments again. It's one thing not to agree with the refutations of your arguments, but quite another to go on repeating the same arguments over and over and over again as if no objections had been raised at all. All you fundamentalist Christians do this. It’s annoying. Most of all it clearly demonstrates the weakness of your position and the arguments you use to defend it.

>What if you are wrong? I am a Christian and try to live a good life.

Boris says: I’m an atheist and I try to live a good life too. Like just about everyone else I try to live a good life for my own selfish reasons. Being a good person gets me better friends, better opportunities and more respect. I don’t need some artificial reason to treat my fellow humans with dignity and respect. Like most people it makes me feel good to be able to help people less fortunate than me. I don’t need to be told to do this because I can see the benefits of being a good person all by myself. I also understand the consequences of not being as good a person as one can be. I don’t need to be threatened. Apparently you don’t understand any of what I just said and so you do need artificial rewards and punishments as motivation to be a good person. That’s pathetic.

>If I die tomorrow and you are right…[continues mindless religious yammering]

Boris says: What happens if you’re wrong and you find out when you die that God is Allah the God of Islam? You won’t just be dead you will be cast into the Muslim hell for mistakenly adopting the wrong religion. Does that scare you? Does that seem fair for such an innocent mistake? Why not? If you ever understand why the Muslim hell and Allah don’t frighten you then you’ll understand why I’m not the least bit concerned about the Christian hell or the Christian God.

What evidence do you have that hell even exists? The Bible says so? The Bible claims dead people came back to life unburied them selves and then walked into Jerusalem and appeared to many other people. Why should I believe this? The Bible says that demons caused diseases and that Jesus and other people cast out these demons to cure various diseases. Science tells us that there are natural causes for diseases as well as death and scientists have been able to cure diseases with scientific remedies. There is no reason to believe that demons even exist let alone that they cause diseases or they ever did. There is no reason to believe that rotting corpses came back to life and then dug themselves out of their graves and appeared to many other people. The Bible supposedly says hell exists. There is no reason to believe that either.
The use of fear to induce belief is a logical fallacy. One problem is this rarely gains more than compliance, and often emotional and intellectual agreement does not follow. History shows that this is the case because the use of fear was the largest reason for the spread of Christianity. Contrary to Christianity’s history of itself, in the beginning people didn’t willingly accept Christianity. It was forced on them with either threats of real violence or imaginary ones (hell). God is not made any more likely to exist simply because someone says that if we don't believe in it then we will be punished in the end. Similarly, belief in a god is not made any more rational simply because we are afraid of going to some hell.

What you Christians seem incapable of understanding is that the Christian hell is a Christian belief. No one else seriously believes such a place exists. So if it did actually exist the only people there would be people who didn’t believe there was such a place in their lifetimes. This shoots your Christian dogma full of holes. It proves that the Christian God does not grant people free will. It makes your God a liar.

Boris said...

The gospels have been grossly misinterpreted. The Jesus of the gospels is simply an allegory for the sun. Jesus began his one-year ministry by visiting John who baptizes with water. The Sun begins its yearly journey by visiting Aquarius, the water bearer. Jesus leaves John, who is put in prison and meets Simon and Andrew, two fishermen. The Sun leaves Aquarius, and goes below the horizon, and meets Pisces, the two fish. The parallels between the gospel events and solar mythology continue throughout the story until the end.

That the gospel stories are based on solar mythology is not some new discovery or the latest pop scholarship. I’ve known about this since I was a small child. Thomas Paine wrote An Essay on the Origin of Free-Masonry (1803-1805), about the Bible being allegorical myth describing astrology:

"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun."

"All that went into the making of the Christian historical set-up was long pre-extant as something quite other than history, was in fact expressly non-historical, in the Egyptian mythology and eschatology. For when the sun at the Easter equinox entered the sign of the fishes (Pisces) about 225 BCE, the Jesus who stands as the founder of Christianity was at least 10,000 years of age and has been traveling hither as the Ever Coming One through all preceding time... During those 10,000 years, that same incarnation of the divine ideal in the character of Iusa [or Horus], the Coming Son, has staurated the mind of Egypt with its exalting influence. Little did men of that epoch dream that their ideal figure of man's divinity would in time be rendered historical as a man of flesh." - Alvin Boyd Kuhn

"When the conception of a purely spiritual Christ could no longer successfully be imported to the turbulent masses, who clamored for a political savior, it was found necessary or expedient to substitute the idea of a personal messiah... The swell of this tide carried the Church fathers to the limit of recasting the entire four gospels in terms of human biography." - Alvin Boyd Kuhn
>This song explains something which Boris will never change. Even better, it's sung here by someone who faced the enemy on a secular TV show, and won by a significant margin proving there are many more of "us" than there are of "them."

Boris says: Atheists are the fastest going minority there is. 3 out of 4 Christian college students reject their faith before they graduate. Most of them become atheists. Still we atheists don’t need strength in numbers to support what is an almost universal neurosis – belief in a deity or deities. We don’t have to get together once a week or more with other like-minded people and throw our hands in the air and sing and shout about something we are trying to believe. We atheists don’t have to listen to someone tell us what to believe, why we should believe it and what will happen to those who don’t. You Christians do.

Boris said...

>I usually get the impression that Boris tries to convince himself more than us. I think someones tugging at his heart. Paul killed Christians in his time but then became the writer of 2/3 of the New Testament. People like Hank, Lee Strobel,and Josh McDowell are atheists turned Christian. Anything's possible, especially with God.

Boris says: What a crock. Hank, Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell were never atheists except in their infancy like we all are. Hank was raised by a Calvinist father and is a lifelong Christian. Strobel and McDowell have claimed to be atheists but admit that while they were “atheists” they really knew there was a God they just didn’t want to face up to the fact that they were sinners. That is NOT the definition of an atheist. I’m an atheist. An atheist is a person who rejects what all other human beings claim about any Gods. You’re a human being and I reject all of your claims based on that fact alone. Of course if you had some evidence for your beliefs that would be different. But you don’t, only arguments. Another thing Christians never seem to understand is that arguments are NOT evidence. They demonstrate that the person making the arguments has no evidence.

I’ve just taken away every reason you have to believe. Go look in the mirror now and ask that moron why he still does. Because he’s been frightened out of his mind. Just be honest enough to admit that.

Anonymous said...

Boris says: I’m an atheist and I try to live a good life too. Like just about everyone else I try to live a good life for my own selfish reasons. Being a good person gets me better friends, better opportunities and more respect. I don’t need some artificial reason to treat my fellow humans with dignity and respect. Like most people it makes me feel good to be able to help people less fortunate than me. I don’t need to be told to do this because I can see the benefits of being a good person all by myself. I also understand the consequences of not being as good a person as one can be. I don’t need to be threatened. Apparently you don’t understand any of what I just said and so you do need artificial rewards and punishments as motivation to be a good person. That’s pathetic.

Just for the record...the only post I have made on here is the one that you responded to with the above comment.
I could just hear you "yelling" and being so mean when you wrote that response, but I'm not sure why. Anyways, I wasn't saying that I am a Christian therefore I am good or try to be or that only Christians can do good OR for that matter that it is because I think God wants me to be. I wasn't saying that I'm good so I can go to heaven...won't get you there anyways. I was describing myself. I didn't want to come across as someone who thought I was perfect or better than anyone else. Guess I was misunderstood.

Anonymous said...

If you are on this site responding to Boris in oreder to convert him or change his mind, it isn't going to happen. Every comment fuels his fire away from God. You insult him and harden his heart everytime you say you will pray for him. Your words and what you consider "facts" will not change him. He can be changed, but not by all of you. You are pushing him further away.

Anonymous said...

Boris,

Just so you know, there is more than five DIFFERENT anonymous's on here.

Boris says: Please don’t make these same arguments again. It's one thing not to agree with the refutations of your arguments, but quite another to go on repeating the same arguments over and over and over again as if no objections had been raised at all. All you fundamentalist Christians do this. It’s annoying.

I say: Well you are doing the SAME THING. You repeat saying Jesus and God are liars, and saying there is no God. We will see who the liar is on Judgment Day...okay?

Psalms 53:1
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Just some food for thought:-)

Anonymous said...

Does being an arrogant, conceited jerk fit in with your being a good person? That's why no one listens to you. Read a book on communicating with people, they'll all say the same thing.

Boris you give atheists a bad name.

Boris said...

Psalms 53:1
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'"

Boris says: Yes but the wise man shouts it out loud for everyone to hear. - Just some food for thought:-) Oh that's right. You're a Christian. You aren't allowed to think. Believers don't think and thinkers don't believe. That passage from the Psalms is nothing more than one of the Bible's many defenses against critical thinking and free inquiry. You feel for it and I didn't.

Boris said...

Your words and what you consider "facts" will not change him. He can be changed, but not by all of you. You are pushing him further away.

Boris says: That’s right, if God wants me to believe he really exists then let him tell me, not you. Since he hasn’t done this I can assume either God doesn’t care about whether I believe in him or more likely there is no God. I really don’t care personally because there are no verifiable consequences either way.

Anonymous said...

Boris says: That’s right, if God wants me to believe he really exists then let him tell me, not you. Since he hasn’t done this I can assume either God doesn’t care about whether I believe in him or more likely there is no God. I really don’t care personally because there are no verifiable consequences either way.


Point proven...exactly.