When we talk about Saint Patrick, he was a saint as in the patron saint of Ireland, not in the Roman Catholic sense of being canonized. He was not Irish, interestingly enough, but a missionary to Ireland from Scotland, and when he arrived in Ireland most of the Irish practiced a nature-based form of paganism. Saint Patrick's Day is celebrated March 17th, and that is to commemorate the death of Saint Patrick in the 5th century. The first Saint Patrick's Day parade did not take place in Ireland. It took place in New York City in 1762 and, ironically, up until the 1970s the Irish regulations mandated that pubs in Ireland be closed March 17th. In the mid-90s the Irish saw Saint Patrick's Day as an opportunity to enhance tourism.
For us as Christians I think it's most noteworthy that Saint Patrick's Day falls during the Lenten period. Lent, of course, the 40 days during which we remember our sinfulness and which we repent of our sins and recognize afresh God's grace and forgiveness. This week is the final week, Holy Week, which begins the day after Palm Sunday. On Thursday we honor the memory of the final Passover supper, Good Friday we celebrate the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and we can say celebrate in that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is at once the most brutal and yet the most beautiful act in all of human history. Brutal in that you have the truly innocent Man who suffers and dies for the sins of the world; beautiful in that through this suffering redemption is offered to humanity. All of this culminates on Easter Sunday in which we celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 "If Christ is not raised your preaching is useless and so is your faith." So the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not just something we celebrate. It is the central pillar on which all of Christianity rises or falls. Christianity cannot survive an identifiable tomb containing the corpse of Christ. Christ rose physically. If we had been in the grave when Christ rose from the dead we would have seen dust fly off the very slab on which Jesus Christ lay. It is because of His physical resurrection that we know that we too will rise immortal, imperishable, incorruptible. We too will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. There's a one to one correspondence between the body that dies and the body that rises. That doesn't mean that every atom is resuscitated, but it does mean that there's continuity between our present body and the new body that we will receive, a body that is resurrected such that our DNA flourishes to perfection.
What happens to our bodies goes hand in hand with what happens to the universe, for the universe too, according to the Apostle Paul will be liberated from its bondage to death and decay. There's going to be a new order of things. No more death, mourning, crying or pain, for the old order of things will have been removed and God Himself will live with us. But, of course, as the box top of Scripture, paradise lost will become paradise restored. So this week is not just an ordinary week. This is our week and all of us should be equipped to communicate that the resurrection is not something we believe through blind faith, but rather something we accept through faith in evidence. Christ suffered fatal torment, the tomb was empty, He appeared and gave many convincing proofs that He was alive and a band of scared, scattered disciples were transformed into lions of the faith who turned an empire upside down.
I think if we ever caught the beauty and the passion of resurrection in our own epic of time we could change our world in our lifetime. The real problem is not pagans who exercise their job description. It's Christians who are not exercising their job description, able always to be able to give an answer and a reason for the hope that lies within them with gentleness and with respect.
skip to main |
skip to sidebar
37 comments:
Did Jesus eat the Passover?
One of the things that christians ignore is the fact that the last Passover meal although called a seder wasn’t one.
Now let’s get something straight. The New Testament is seen as the Word of Hashem. If it is, it must be error free.
Here is what Luke 22: 8-16 reports;
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
This is a Passover Seder. No, doubt about it. Now let’s read what John 18:26-28 says in his gospel;
One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew. Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
This is the day after Jesus and his disciples ate the passover. Here John says that the Jews have not eaten the Passover, yet.
This is too obvious to ignore but there is another problem that few even find in this Gospel. Here is the passage before the betrayal, the entire 13th chapter of John. Notice some of the elements are here that appear in the other gospels but John tells us that this is before the Passover.
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him; Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus’ breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake. Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
There is no Passover Seder here, only a supper. No wine, bread mentioned only sop. No mention of the New Covenant or New Testament. (It is interesting that the words Covenant or Testament never appear in John, not even once.)
What is even worse is that while all of the gospels say that Jesus ate the Passover Seder on the Passover at the same time saying that he ate it early on the eve of the preparation day. This was eaten a full day earlier than the rest of Israel in violation of the Torah. Jesus must have eaten the passover on the 13th of Nissan. It is to be eaten on the 15th.
Read these passages describing events that occurred on the preparation day, the 14th of Nissan.
Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, (Matthew 27:62)
And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, (Mark 15:42)
And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. (Luke 23:54)
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! (John 19:14)
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31)
There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand. (John 19:42)
Well, my last point is that we must examine the words of Jesus to see if he said it was a Passover Seder or not. He tells us his thoughts in Luke 22:12-17
And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Jesus says it is a Passover Seder. This seder was not eaten when it was supposed to therefore the Torah was disregarded and broken. This means that Jesus went to the cross having committed sin. Now he was according to christian theology was a unfit sacrifice.
For years I tried to reconcile these passages. I had to concede that these are valid contradictions and this cannot be the Word of Hashem and the New Testament cannot be trusted.
Problem Solved.
This is a post from my blog:
readmyblogplease.com
Matthew 5:17-20
Matthew 12:1-14
Luke 6:1-11
Problem Solved
Something I find odd about James' post is that by accusing Jesus of not eating the Passover on the correct day, he is in effect saying the the Pharisees ARE having it on the correct day. I can't help but wonder how after all the times Jesus corrected their false teachings and traditions we are to believe that the Phar's are now doing something correctly. I mean, even w/in the context of this passage the Phar's are holding an illegal trial trying to have an innocent man crucified! Am I to believe that THEY are correctly observing the LORD's Passover rather than Jesus?
James also states that "the Jews have not eaten the Passover, yet." Does this mean EVERY Jew w/in Israel? Or does it refer to the Jews (who where probably mainly Phar's) who where participating in this illegal trial w/in the context?
A little research into OT history will show that because of the Babylonian exile things, for simplicity sake, got muddled up (dates, records, etc). Even the way the OT authors recorded dates differed from author to author, prophet to prophet. Sometimes giving up to a three year window of when events occurred.
Fast forward to the days of Jesus and I wonder if we are to think that all the messes from the past several hundred years are now somehow rectified and that now every single Torah-following Jewish person celebrated Passover on the same exact day.
I mean, it's not like something as simple as Passover observance could possibly get misconstrued after several hundred years of teaching.
Right?
With the various teachings among the Phar's and the Sadducees alone it does seem rather presumptuous to state that all Jews were observing Passover on the correct day and that Jesus and his disciples were not.
With factors like that of the Babylonian exile and the various teachings among Jewish religious leaders this question arises: Could that mean that those w/in Jerusalem celebrated Passover on different days because of the differing teachings and differing dates/records among the Jews?
I wonder if John recorded this the way he did was because, at the time he wrote, people knew that not all Jews celebrated Passover on the exact same day b/c of the various teachings. I also wonder if he stated it like that b/c Jesus had already called the Phar's out several times on their hypocrisy and, with this in mind, readers would see that hypocrisy magnified all the more as the Phar’s were trying to have an innocent man executed (in the worst way possible) and yet observe their external religious customs so that they would be "clean" to eat the Passover on the day that THEY observed it.
Maybe, just MAYBE, Jesus observed Passover on the correct day and John records the trial noting that the hypocritical Phar's were trying to execute him before they could observe when THEY thought the Passover was to be held…..maybe.
But I suppose it's OK to read these passages about Jesus, like our good friend above, and figure that Jesus was in the wrong here and that the good ole, Law-abiding Pharisees were doing things right.
Right?
James w., you are reaching. Lets not rationalize imagination.
My Blog: www.bloodmessage.com
Hello Hank, I have listened to you for a long time and I am so glad you have a blog and a podcast! For years I was unable to listen to you on the radio but thank God for podcasts because now I can listen whenver I want. My question is about that new Ben Stein movie called Expelled -- have you seen any info on that? It looks like it makes guys like Dawkins look really bad...
If you could post about this that would be awesome because the movie comes out April 18.
Hank, why don't you reply to the comments on your blog?
He probably doesn't reply because he is to busy doing his current ministry to sit here and post replies. The guy has like 12 kids and a huge ministry. He probably doesn't even post those story's, someone else probably posts them for him. They are just his opening comments of his radio broadcast word for word. I am actually surprised that it hasn't been updated for a little bit. With like the global warming special he had last week, that would get some good discussion going.
You guys just don't understand the point here. It is JOHN and the others that say that Jesus ate the passover on the wrong day.
There is no passover eaten on the eve of the 14th. The eve of the 14th comes before the morning and day of the 14th. (Genesis 1)
All the gospel writers say that Jesus was crucified on the "preparation day." This is the 14th of Nisan. This is the day that the lambs are killed and they are eaten about a day later.
John in his mind to make Jesus a "real passover lamb" so he had to die when the BIBLE says the lambs are to be killed. This must happen before the passover is eaten or you are trying to eat a LIVE lamb! OK?
I hate to be simplistic here but you not me are the ones denying the facts here.
In addition, there is a mention of Yeshua being hanged on the 14th of Nisan in the Talmud. This would agree with what John and the others wrote.
That would mean that if Jesus had been cucified on the 15th of Nisan (the day eve after the eve the passover is eaten) then that would have been a High Sabbath and there would have been some note made by the gospel writers about the Pharisees being wrong about the day but the gospel witers and the Pharisees AGREE.
They would have been quick to point out that the Pharisees were eating on the wrong day. But no such mention was made.
No Servant, it is not a "reach."
Beside all this... this is only one in the hundreds of problems with Jesus and New Testament.
Also to say the days were mixed up is ridiculous.
The first day of Nisan happened on a New Moon and is the "reconciliation day." This is based on the barley being "abib" or "ripe."
The First of Nisan cannot have occured until the barley was ripe and was known to all of Israel.
Are you beginning to see how ridiculous the NT is?
-james w.
Mr. James, granted-it is MY implication that the Phar’s ate on the WRONG day, which, for the sake of argument can be dismissed because it is my speculation based on limited information. But in my defense I did say “MAYBE”. I did not state that the Phar’s definitely ate on the incorrect day. I said “maybe.” And I also stated the possibility that the Phar’s ate on the day THEY observed it, rather than the day that every Jew in Jerusalem did.
On that note, you have, again, failed to address the possibility that Jews ate Passover on different days as a result of differing interpretations among the Phar’s and Sadducees. (Good job too on only posting half of what I wrote on your site.)
Even though I don’t have a detailed response, only the general idea that Passover was observed at various times among the Jews, there is a rather good explanation of it on this one blog I saw. What was it again? Oh yeah its:
readmyblogplease.com
It’s in your original post of “Did Jesus eat the Passover?” under the comments section.
Someone else, much more informed than I, already commented on your claims. I highly recommend others to read it because it actually makes sense. And apparently you have not responded to him. Only to me, a guy posting a lot of rhetoric.
James, I’ll tell you this, you do come with very legitimate and challenging questions. And if you somehow prove that Jesus wasn’t who he claimed and that Christianity is false, I, as well as many others, would have no other choice but to concede to your evidence and recant of our faith. And if proven so, I would be one of the first to back you up.
However, the claims you offer are not new. And many (if not all) of them have been answered and refuted.
If you have truth for us that is necessary to avoid being separated from God for eternity, then present it to us without the venomous sarcasm of your mentor, Prof. Mordochai ben-Tziyyon. It’s hard to listen to (or take serious) the teaching of someone who calls Jesus a “narrow-minded, cruel bigoted racist.” See: http://www.tektonics.org/qt/tzzzt.html
So if you have actual evidence to support claims like that of Prof. Mordochai ben-Tziyyon, who states that Christianity didn’t exist prior to AD 325 (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) then maybe, just MAYBE, it’s best for you to hush. After all, Christians should have not just blind faith, but belief based on evidence. And it seems best if you would provide actual evidence rather than leave countless souls at the mercy of your speculations.
-a nobody
James did you hear that? Sounded like a bell. Schools in session.
-a nobody,
If you left a comment on my site everything that was entered by you was posted. If you feel that it was not then re-post your comment and I will be happy to correct what you did previously... I am not opposed to posting views that I don't agree with.
But the fact remains. John and the others all make no mention of the Pharisees eating on the "wrong day" and they ALL agree that it was on the preparation day that Jesus was crucified.
Those were not my words but theirs...
So you will not say that I miquoted anyone.
Matthew 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
They made the point of mentioning this with no point of saying anything in regards to the day not being the correct day. I was only bring up the point.
Like I said that this is only one point in hundreds. I will be posting more on my blog. I invite you to discuss it and make comments.
Thanks,
-james w.
For clarification, I never posted a comment on readmyblogplease.com. I posted the comment on THIS blog on March 26, 2008 5:32 PM as "anonymous."
James copied the first half of THAT post and put in on his main page (March 30, 2008 on 10:07 pm), followed by "This was my response" and posted his March 30, 2008 5:45 PM (from here) on his blog. So when I said "Good job too on only posting half of what I wrote on your site," I meant the first half of what I wrote on THIS site that you pasted onto YOUR site.
Comprende?
The article I refer to on YOUR site (James) was posted by a guy named Jay on March 27, 2008. I just find it odd that you claimed half of my post (from Hank's blog) to respond to on your site rather than what this Jay guy says, who, by the way, presents a very detailed explanation.
James, as far as hearing you, we heard you. And you make an excellent point about the NT passages. A lot of us scratched our heads and probably some people panicked. But the fact remains that you have been answered, by whoever Jay is, and yet for some reason you avoid it and post the speculations of some anonymous, and admittedly ignorant, Christian on your site as if that individual were an authoritative representative of the Christian perspective.
Read what Jay posted on your blog (and just in case you wonder no, I am not Jay) and reply to THAT rather than posting MY rhetoric as if I were stating hard fact.
Again, seriously, if you have the truth, many of us will back you 100%. You will be whole-heartedly supported if you reveal that all the evidence we have to support Christianity is false.
But you don't seem to be doing that. It seems that all you've done is taken good, yet basic questions, (that can be legitimately answered) and essentially said that, b/c YOU can't reconcile them, it must therefore be proof that Christianity is false.
And by ignoring what someone like Jay posted and going after me, you're allowing your case to continuously disintegrate in to little more than articulate conjecture.
I'm begging you James, read what this other guy says and respond to IT (rather than me) and maybe you can prove it wrong. If you can, we WILL listen. If you can't, then we can't really entertain any more of your claims. And if THAT be the case.......then hush.
-a nobody
First off. You know me when I post because I use the name "james w." I ( and others) have a hard time keeping track of anyone that posts as anonymous. If you have something important to say then atleast post with an synonym like "a nobody" does. This will eliminate some confusion.
Ok. I think you are talking about what Jay posted as a comment(an article by Dennis McCallum). Sorry about an confusion on my behalf.
I had only glanced at his comment and had not really had time to even think about what he had said.
But I have read all this type of argument before many times.
After reading it I must point out that the first faulty assumption is that the preparation day is synonomous with "Friday." This is done to establish an absolute position in the week by the author of the article. Why this is done nobody knows. Perhaps it is to justify "good friday." Did a catholic write this article?
While there are many references in this article to Friday there is nothing to establish this in any passages in the NT.
The phrase, "John also says, in this same verse, that that Sabbath was also a “High Day.” is problematic. I don't believe ( and prove me wrong if you can) that John says anywhere that the weekly sabbath and the high sabbath are one and the same. The preparation day is the 14th.
Forget everything I wrote up to this point. It doesn't matter.
This is the crucial thing to remember: There is no disagreement here on the actual date of the 14th. The thing in question is who did what on the 14th.
Everyone agrees that Jesus died on the afternoon of the 14th. Correct?
This presents big problems with the christianity.
1) No three days and nights in the heart of the earth. But go ahead and say anything that you can think of (any part of a day is equal to a full day etc...) to make it work. This is not going to further or disprove my point.
2) Would have the Priests etc. gone back to Pilate to request a guard be posted and become defiled on a High Sabbath? Remember they wouldn't even go to the judgment hall on the preparation day. You will come up with something to counter this but this has no bearing on my point, either.
3) Jesus did not eat HIS PASSOVER / LAMB on the correct day.
This is problem that christianity can't overcome.
Answer these questions:
1) Did the disciples prepare the passover?
Mark 14:16 16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
2) Did he have his lamb killed as the sun was going down on the 14th?
No, the disciples say that he was busy on the cross then...
3) Did he eat the passover after his lamb was killed or before?
You tell me?!?
If your Jesus is the literal expression of the WRITTEN Word then what the Pharisee's said makes no difference here. It makes no difference what -a nobody, Jay or anyone says. What matters is what Hashem says. This is what Hashem says.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth of the first month at even "Beyn ha Arbayim" (during the time when the sun is going down /afternnon) is the LORD’S passover.
This is when Jesus was killed. Not when HIS LAMB was killed. If he ate a lamb it was not sacrificed at the right time. Therefore he did not have a passover seder.
Jesus although he said he ate the passover he did not. He did not obey the Commandment of Hashem.
I see this as a big problem. Jesus called this a passover but Hashem would have not.
And as far as the New Covenant goes, it didn't happen either.
You forgot these James W.
Jn.19:14-16
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.
Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-16
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.
Hmmmm....
Christians want their cake and to eat it too..
From anonymous "Jay":
James and "your friend",
I do hope this will help in your understanding of the timeline of passover. It is very long but I feel if you are willing to attempt to lie to these people then I should give what I have found to rebute your hogwash. If you and your friend would just do your homework then I wouldn't have to look everything up for you.
Everybody enjoy this long answer about the last supper/passover by
Joseph Armand Petit.
The Last Supper was not The Evening before the Crucifixion.
Holy Week Revisited.
In 2ed Cor. 13:1 it states, "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." Paul uses two or three witnesses as did Moses in Deut. 17:6. My first witness; In Matt. 26:1-7 a woman poured ointment on Jesus. Matt. 21:1 through Matt. 25:46 tells of Jesus being in Jerusalem three days earlier. Second witness; Mark 14:1-5 a woman poured ointment on Jesus. Mark 11:1 through Mark 13:37 tells of Jesus being in Jerusalem three days earlier. Witnesses are what the Gospels are, yes? In John 12:1-12 Jesus arrived in Bethany, the ointment is poured and Jesus supposedly goes into Jerusalem the next morning. Three witnesses say this didn't happen. He was in Jerusalem three days earlier. Luke is my third witness, but he comes from a different angle which is explained later in this article. It has to do with Judas after Jesus was in Jerusalem three days earlier. I came across this when studying the similarities of time between Ex. 12:3 and Ex.12:6 when the lamb was separated and when it was sacrificed and after two days is the Passover and six days is the Passover. It's four days. The following is the result of my on going study. (All quotes from the King James Bible unless otherwise noted.)
Matt. 26:1-2 states, "And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, He said unto his disciples, 'Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified."Mark14:1 refers to the same Passover. In John 12:1 it states, "Then Jesus six days before passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead." There is a four day difference between these two Passovers. In Ex. 12:3 it states, "Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:" In Ex. 12:6 it states, "And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening." There is also a four day difference between Ex. 12:3 and Ex. 12:6. We know by reading Lev. 23:5 that Ex. 12:6 refers to the Lords' Passover. Could Ex. 12:3 refer to the Last Supper and Jesus being later separated from his flock as the Lamb of God on Nisan 10?
First, let us establish when the Passover was or is. When was or is the Lord's Passover? When was or is the Jews' Passover? In Ex.12:11 we read, "And thus shall ye eat with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and staff in your hand; and ye shall eat in haste: it is the Lord's passover." In Lev.23:5 we read, In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover." The Ryrie Study Bible N.I.V. Moody Press states in Lev. 23:5,"The Lord's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month." Notice "at." Passover does not include the whole day. It only indicates the end of the day. In the foot-notes of The Ryrie Study Bible N.I.V. Moody Press, page 100, it states for Ex.12:6, "at twilight Lit., between the evenings. Some understanding this to mean between sunset and nightfall [about 6-7p.m.]; others, between the sun's decline and sunset [about 3-5 p.m.]." In Luke 23:44, (back to the Kings James bible),"And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour" This was on the 14th, the Lord's Passover. Jesus died at or after this time. In Ex. 12:6 we read, "And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening." The day starts at sunset in the Bible. In Ex. 12:8 we read, "And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it." This would be the 15th. On that night, the 15th, they ate the Lord's Passover, which was killed on the 14th in the evening. The killed lamb was the Lord's Passover. That same night the death angle passed over Egypt. This is the night the Jews currently call Passover. John 19:42, "There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was nigh at hand." There was and is a preparation day before any holy day. This preparation was for Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15. Jesus was the Lord's Passover on the 14th. Notice Luke 22:1, "Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover." However, Moses in Lev.23:6 is quoted, "And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread." The way the word Passover was sometimes used in Jesus' day is the way the word is used today by the Jews. Passover is determined by the Jewish calendar. It is Nisan 15; a High Sabbath. The Encyclopedia of Judaism, copyright 1989 MacMillan Publishing Co., page 540, second sentence, states, "Passover is celebrated for eight days (seven days in Israel and by Reform Jews) commencing on 15 Nisan." Something not realized by a lot of people is the fact that John didn't use the term Unleavened Bread in his gospel. The other apostles did. John used the term Jews' Passover or Feast of the Jews when he referred to Nisan 15, Passover for the Lord's Passover and other uses.
Another thing that is not widely known is that the Feast was one of eight days, rather then seven days. This was accepted by Jesus and the apostles as they showed no evidence of rejecting the High Holy Days as observed. This eight day Feast is brought out in the book "The Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim, which I quote heavily at the end of this article. From the works of Josephus it states that the 14th of Nisan had become a Feast Day in the time of Jesus. The 13th had become a preparation day for Feast, as you shall read later on. Leaven (yeast products including crumbs) was removed on this day instead of the 14th. This information appears on the last two pages of this article.
There is a good example in the Bible in the use of the words Unleavened Bread and Passover in the Old Testament. 2ed Ch.30:13-15 states, "And there assembled at Jerusalem much people to keep the feast of unleavened bread in the second month, a very great congregation. And they arose and took away the alters that were in Jerusalem, and all the alters for incense took they away, and cast them into the brook Kidron. Then they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the second month: and the priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought in the burnt offerings into the house of the Lord." The day kept was Unleavened Bread, and the lamb that was killed, was called the Passover.
The Old Testament calls Nisan 15 the Feast of Unleavened Bread as did the apostles and Jesus. The Lord's Passover is at the evening of the 14th of Nisan. It was also called the Passover by Jesus and the apostles. The lamb that was killed is called the Passover in the time of Jesus and is called that today by the Jews. In Strong's concordance the Greek word for unleavened is numbered 106.- azumos, (as a neg. particle) and 2219; unleavened, i.e. (fig.) uncorrupted; (in the neut. Plur.) spec.(by impl.) the Passoverweek:-unleavened (bread). The Greek word for Passover is numbered 3957.- pascha. of chald. or. [comp.6453]; the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):- Easter, Passover.
I'm starting with Jesus having left Jericho and being in Bethany. He left from Bethany in the morning, John 12:12-19 and traveled to Bethphage and then unto the Mount of Olives. He obtains a colt and finished His ride into Jerusalem. Mark 11:1, Luke 19:29 and Matt. 21:1 all read similar. "And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethpage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples;" Bethphage and Bethany are southeast of Jerusalem and Jericho is northeast of Jerusalem. From here to the pouring of the oil, and six days before Passover, John says nothing as to what day it is. If my understanding is correct, the date of entry into Jerusalem was on the 5th or 6th of Nisan counting back from the later date of the 14th when the crucifixion happened. (This would have been Wednesday or Thursday depending on how "after two days" is counted which is explained later.) Most current harmonies of the gospels accept John's single version of Jesus leaving from Bethany. Jesus left Jerusalem later in the day and went back to Bethany according to Mark11:11.
Harmonies are not in most Bibles that people use when reading. A harmony of the gospels is found in bigger Bibles such as study and large family Bibles. The harmony is used during Christmas to show when events happened.
----Contents_____________________________Matt.________Mark_______Luke_______John
1. Introduction__________________________________________________1:1-4_______1:1-14
2. Genealogies--Matt. legal, Luke- natural_____1:1-17___________________3:23-38__________
3.Birth of John announced to Zacharias______________________________1:5-25
4. Birth of Jesus announced to Mary at______________________________1:26-38____________
Nazareth six months later.
5. Mary's visit to Elizabeth.________________________________________1:39-56____________
As you can see the current harmony goes from one gospel to another to show the order of events. However, in the current harmony for Holy Week involving the pouring of the ointment, there is a section where Matt. and Mark are taken out of sequence to coincide with John 12:1-8.
----Contents_____________________________Matt.________Mark_______Luke_______John
126. Jesus heals blind near Jericho_________(20:6-34)_____(10:46-52)___18:35-19:1______
127. Zaccherus climbs a sycamore-fig_______________________________19:2-10_________
and called down by Jesus.
128. Near Jerusalem, when men think the____________________________19:11-27________
kingdom of God shall appear, Jesus corrects
them.
129. Mary anoints Jesus head and feet.____(26:6-13)_______(14:3-9)________________12:1-8
_________________________________________________________________________12:9-11
130. Jesus triumphantly enters Jerusalem.__(21:1-11)______(11:1-11)____19:29-44____12:12-19
Notice that Matt. 20:6-34 is followed by verse 26:6-13 then back to verse 21:1-11. In Mark verse 10:46-52 is followed by verse 14:3-9 then back to verse 11:1-11. Apparently someone or a church though that Matt. and Mark were incorrect when they instituted this harmony centuries ago which became the accepted harmony of today. I don't think so. Please read on.
On the next morning Jesus returned to Jerusalem and the incident of the fig tree, which was alive, occurred according to Matt. 21:18-19 and Mark 11:12-13. Jesus taught most of the day. It was Nisan 6th or 7th counting back from the 14th. John does not mention the fig incident, but the current harmonies uses Matt. and Mark to have the fig incident on Monday, Nisan 10, counting from a Friday crucifixion.
The third day starts with Jesus passing the fig tree, which was now dead, showing that Jesus was in Jerusalem three days according to Mark 11:20. At the end of the day, 7or 8 of Nisan, Matt.26:1-2 states, "And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, He said unto his disciples, 'Ye know that after two days is the feast of passover, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified.''' In Mark 14:1, "After two days was the feast of passover, and of unleavened bread: (Passover and Unleavened Bread are two different days. The Lords Passover had become part of the official feast in Jesus time as you will read later on.) and the chief priest and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death." This is the time when the priest decided to arrest Jesus. After three days In Jerusalem. Not before as you will read, in John 11:57. Matt. (The Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified.) Not betrayed and crucified. The betrayal was one day and the crucifixion was on another. Jesus was referring to Nisan 10 when the Passover season started, the same time the count-down started in Ex. 12:3, when the lamb was chosen. You can't have a feast unless a lamb is chosen. That was the beginning of the first Passover in Egypt. Jesus was still in Jerusalem during the time described in Matt. 26:1-2 and Mark 14:1. He left Jerusalem at the end of the day and went back to Bethany. It was after the return to Bethany that John 12:1 says, "Then Jesus six days before passover came to Bethany". It was from Jerusalem that Jesus arrived at Bethany, not Jericho, as it has been assumed in some harmonies. Look at John 12:1. It bounces in out of nowhere. The Bible does not say, in John 12:1 that Jesus arrived in Bethany from Jericho. The current harmonies figured time from John's arrival in Bethany (the amount of time, six days before the Passover) to the Jews' Passover, Nisan15. I believe John figured time from the arrival in Bethany from Jerusalem (the amount of time, six days before Passover) to the Lord's Passover, Nisan 14. The question is why would John not refer to one of the most important day of earths history, Nisan 14, the Lord's Passover, but would mention Nisan 15, which is Unleavened Bread, the Jew's Passover? Jesus died and was buried on Nisan 14. Jesus had finished the work in Jerusalem and was back in Bethany and John was with him after sun-down making it the next day when he figured the time for the statement of John 12:1. The way the current harmonies counts is from sun-down Saturday evening to sun-down Sunday evening is one day. From sun-down Sunday evening to sun-down Mon. is two days. Sun-down Mon to sun-down Tues. is three days. Sun-down Tues. to sun-down Wed. is four days. Sun-down Wed. to sun-down Thurs. is five days. Sun-down Thurs. to sun-down Fri. is six days before the Jews' Passover. John didn't say Jews' Passover. He said Passover. John did use the term "Jews' Passover in John 2:13 also John 11:55."
Before I go any farther, the Bible is somewhat unclear separating one period of time from another. Neither Luke nor John separates time from Jesus entering Jerusalem to when Jesus went back to Bethany three days later. We have to use Mark and Matt. in order to figure that Jesus was in Jerusalem three days. One way we can determine Jesus was convicted on Nisan 13 and crucified on Nisan 14 is to read two gospels, Mark and John. ( More on this later.) There is also the problem of the language spoken two thousand years ago and understanding it today.
There is a question regarding the phrase after two days. One of the references I'm using, "Eerdmans Bible Concordance", copy right 1970 Inter-Varsity Press, London, page 847 states "After two days indicates that this was Wednesday". This puts two days between Wed. and Sat., the Jews Passover.
Another reference I'm using is a family edition of the Catholic Press, Chicago: Ill, copyright, 1959 Imprimaturs Samuel Stritch. In the harmony map section of this Bible, Matt.26:1-5, Mark 14:1-2 and Luke22:1-2 after two days indicates Holy Thursday. This would be counting inwardly. After today and any part of it, and after tomorrow is the Passover, which was Saturday, the Jews' Passover. Therefore, there is only one day between Thursday and Saturday. A former graduate of a Bible university told me that the Jews in Jesus' time possibly would have counted this way. The Catholic Church claims its origin back to Peter, as the first Pope, and proclaims this as doctrine.
As to the number of days between after two days and the Passover, I think it's two. Only I believe Jesus was referring to when the Lord's Supper was to be. I believe that after two days referred to the Lord's Supper and six days is the Passover referred to the Lord's Passover. Both were spoken or thought in the same time period. Matt. 26:1 and Mark 14:1 seem to be yet in Jerusalem, on Nisan 7, Friday. John 12:1 seems to be in Bethany. A walk from Jerusalem to Bethany and be at supper, a period of one to three hours. The way John is written, it counts the Lords' Passover from Saturday the 8th. It was the beginning of the day so from sun-down Fri. Nisan 7 to Sun-down Sat. Nisan 8 would be one day before Passover. From sun-down Sat.to sun-down Sun. would be two days before Passover. From sun-down Sun.to sun-down Mon. would be three days. From sun-down Mon. to sun-down Tue. is four days. From sun-down Tue. to sun-down Wed. is five days and from sun-down Wed. to sun-down Thu.Nisan 13 is six days before the Lords' Passover. John said Passover. The Lord's Passover was the next day, 14 Nisan. Notice that I didn't start my count on Saturday at sun-down to Sunday at sundown. In the current harmonies John 12:1 is spoken after sun down Saturday and Matt. 26:1 and Mark 14:1 are spoken on Thurs., the 13th in the Catholic harmony and on the 12th Wed. in the Ryrie study Bible, separating when John is spoken and Matt. and Mark are spoken. They are referring to the same Passover, the Jews Passover or Unleavened Bread. The current harmonies states that the ointment was poured before Jesus went into Jerusalem. I think the ointment was poured after three days of speaking in Jerusalem, as the gospels of Matt. and Mark state, and I'm going to use the Bible and history to show this.
After saying after two days, Jesus went back to Bethany for supper at Simon's house. This would have been the beginning of the 8th of Nisan, Saturday. In Matt. 26:7 and Mark 14:3 a woman poured ointment on Jesus. John 12:1 and part of verse 3 states, "Then Jesus six days before Passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead." And part of verse three, "Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus." John's pouring of ointment seems to be in disagreement with Matt. 26:1-2 and Mark 14:1 as to when the ointment was poured. There is a four days difference. The answer to this is that Matt. and Mark was referring to the 10th of Nisan when the lamb was separated from the flock in Ex.12:3 and John was referring to the 14th of Nisan, when the lamb was sacrificed in Ex.12:6 and Jesus was crucified. It is the same four day difference as Ex.12:3 and 6, thus the gospels truly agree when the ointment was poured.
Deut. 17:6 states, "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death."
In Matt. 26:14, "Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priest," This was after Jesus was in Jerusalem for three days and after the ointment was poured. In Mark 14:10, And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them." This also was after being three days in Jerusalem and after the ointment was poured. In Luke 22:3, "Then entered Satan into Judas surname Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."(This is my third witness I spoke of in the begining.) This happened after Jesus was in Jerusalem three days. In John 12:4, Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him," This happened before Jesus went into Jerusalem.
John 11:57 states, "Now both the chief priest and the pharsees had given a commanment, that, if any man knew where he were, ( Jesus) he should shew it, that they might take him."
In Matt. 21:12 Jesus turned the tables on the first day of being in Jerusalem. I think the priest would have notice that Jesus was in town. If John 11:57 is in the correct order, why didn't the priest have Jesus followed and arrested that night? The order to arrest Jesus was given after Jesus was in Jerusalem three days as stated by the other gospels, Luke 22:2, Mark 14:1 and Matt. 26:3-4 after which the ointment was poured and Satan entered Judas.
Some people would say that Mark and Luke followed Matthews lead. If this were so, why is the blind man or men of Jericho so different? As Jesus was going into Jericho, in Luke 18:35 reads, "And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:" This is one man before Jesus went into Jericho. In Mark 10:46, "And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging." Here it's one man and it was after Jericho. In Matt.20:29-30, "and as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude followed him. And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David." This is two men after Jericho.
Regarding the question as to when the ointment was poured. John 12:1-6 shows the ointment being poured before Jesus went into Jerusalem. Matt. 26:3-6 and Mark 14:3-9 shows the ointment poured after Jesus was in Jerusalem three days. Note how the current harmonies takes Matt. and Mark out of order to use John's gospel as primary gospel of Jesus going into Jerusalem after the ointment was poured. Please locate a harmony in a study bible or a large family Bible. To make Matt. and Mark match John's gospel, Matt. 20:29-34 is followed by Matt. 26:6-13 and then they go back to Matt. 21:1-11. Mark 10:46-52 is followed by Mark 14:3-9 and back to Mark 11:1-11. In using Matt. and Mark as primary instead of John's single gospel, in Matt. Jesus enters Jerusalem in chapter 21:1 and after three days the ointment is poured in chapter 26:1-9. In Mark 11:1-11 Jesus enters Jerusalem and after three days the ointment is poured. If John's order of events were correct, why did it take 4 or 5 days to arrest Jesus? The priests could have had Him followed and arrested at any time. The current harmony in effect is saying that Matt. and Mark are wrong.
I think the Bible corrects itself of some rewording by mistake or some Zealots slanting of a very early letter of John with some help from Satan. 2ed Cor. 13:1, " This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
Ex.12:3 is a prophesy of when Jesus would be chosen as the Passover Lamb of God. Ex 12:6 is a prophesy of when Jesus was going to be sacrificed as the Lamb of God for all mankind.
Questions can arise when attempting to understand John 11:55-57 and John 12:1-8. Did Judas go to strike a deal with the priest before Jesus even went into Jerusalem? Why would the priest need Judas at all? Jesus was in full sight for three days according to John's gospel and the current harmonies. In the Ryrie Study Bible N.I.V. Moody Press page 1303, the harmony has the events of John 11:55-57, Matt. 26:6-13, Mark 14:3-9, and John 12:1-8 all taking place within the same time period. I'm in agreement with this, but the Catholic Bible and the Life Application Bible N.I.V. have the events of John 11:55-57 occurring before Jesus left Jericho rather than after Jesus arrived in Bethany/Jerusalem. John 11:55 states, "And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover to purify themselves". I believe this purifying would have started before Nisan10. I believe this purification was a law of the priest, not given by Moses. A purification that lasted until the Passover was eaten. This ritual of purification would continue as people arrived in Jerusalem. I believe it was the purification of Ch.30:17-18 and John 18:28. For these people, the feast started unofficially at this time. Verse John 11: 56-57 states, "Then sought they for Jesus and spake among themselves as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast? Now both the chief priest and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him". I believe this command was issued before Nisan 10. Jesus knew that if He went back to Jerusalem after the ointment was poured, He would be arrested before He could keep the Lord's Supper. On the ninth, He sent two disciples into Jerusalem to prepare a Passover celebration meal and He arrived on the beginning of the tenth, probably after dark.
Where is it in the Bible that Jesus stated that He had a disagreement with the authority as to when the dates of the High Holy days were observed? There is none. If Jesus had a Seder Meal or observed an official Passover, it would be against Moses.
Now this Passover mention on Nisan 9 and eaten on Nisan 10 in Matt. 26:17, "Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" and Mark 14:12, "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" There is no question that the feast mention here meant the entire feast from beginning to end. The word Passover has several translations as in the concordance. The word Unleavened Bread doesn't. This day couldn't be the 14th, the killing of the Passover, and they were going to keep Unleavened Bread because Jesus was killed on the 14th. Some would say that they kept the Lords Passover at the beginning of the 14th. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lords Passover is at evening or twilight of the 14th. That's two or three hours at the end of the day. John also says that it wasn't the 14th. John 13:1 states, "Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end." He was at the Last Supper at this time. John 13:2 states, And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son,to betray him; In Exodus 12:15 it states, "Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel." This is a seven day feast. The book "The Life And Times of Jesus The Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim, which I quote extensively in the last part of this article, states,"And Josephus describes the Feast as one of the eight days, "(b) evidently reckoning its beginning on the 14th, and its close at the end of the 21st Nisan." Also from this section one of the footnotes states; "The Jerusalem Talmund gives the most minute detail of the places in which search is made. One Rabbi proposed that the search be repeated at three different times! If it had been omitted on the evening of the 13th, it could be made of the fore noon of the 14th Nisan." John says that it wasn't a feast day yet when the Last Supper happened. During the time of Moses, the leaven was removed on the 14th. During Jesus time it was removed on the 13th. The Lord's Passover had become part of the feast. This was the ninth and they were going to have a special meal as they had done before. They were going to have a Passover meal like people have a Christmas meal with friends before Dec.25. This was the ninth and they were going to celebrate the beginning of the Passover Season. Now, the disciples came to Jesus expecting to celebrate. It wasn't the first time this was done. Also the man with the pitcher was familiar with the practice. Jesus and his followers sat down to eat. On 10 Nisan Luke 22:15 states, "And he said unto them, 'With desire I have desired to eat this passover (it was the Passover season, yes?) with you before I suffer:'" Luke 22:19 states, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, 'This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.'" Luke 22:20 states, "Likewise also the cup after supper, 'This cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you."' Jesus, being the Lamb of God wasn't going to be with them on the 15th. He instituted the bread and wine ahead of time. Animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. When this service is done now is another matter, which I'm not addressing at this time
In the book, "The Temple Its Ministry and Services," by Alfred Edersheim, printed by Wm Clowes and Sons, London, page 217& 218, Mr. Edersheim writes in the late 1800s, "The modern synagogue designates the Sabbath before the Passover as 'the Great Sabbath,' and prescribes particular prayers and special instruction with a view to the coming festival. For, according to Jewish tradition, at the original institution of the Passover, the 10th of Nisan, on which the sacrifice was selected, had fallen on a Sabbath. But there is no evidence that the name or the observance of this 'Great Sabbath' had been in use at the time of our Lord, although it was enjoined to teach the people in the various synagogues about the Passover during the month which preceded the festival. There is also a significant tradition that some were wont to select their sacrificial lamb four days before the Passover, and to keep it tied in a prominent place within view, so as constantly to remind them of the coming service."
Jesus was arrested that evening and was separated from his flock on the 10th of Nisan. Jesus was interrogated that same night as any criminal would have been. There is no doubt that the Hierarchy wanted Jesus dead. As far as the priest could see Jesus had no respect for the temple or the priesthood. Thousands of people were following Jesus. He was a threat to their establishment
The High Priest asked Jesus if he was the Christ. Mark 14:61 states, "But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" Mark 14:62 states, " and Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." The priest had a legal charge against him. Matt. 26:66 and Mark 14:64 state, "Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." Lev. 24:16 states in part, "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death." Jesus admission that he was the Son of the Blessed was spoken before the cock crowed in verse 68 in Mark. Now notice, this is at night and not morning. Nowhere at night did the priest and elders of the people take council to put Jesus to death. This was not a night time trial. It was an interrogation. The beginning of the paragraph is Mark 14:61. Mark 15:1 is when everybody was at a trial and then they delivered Jesus to Pilate. And it is morning. "And straightway in the morning the chief priest held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate." This is trial number one. Why would they assemble if they had a trial at night? Luke 22:66-71, describes what was said at that trial: "And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priest and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying, Art thou the Christ? Tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. Hereafter shall the Son of Man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. And they said, What need we any further witness? For we ourselves have heard of his own mouth." The priest heard Jesus say, refer to Mark 14:61, that he was the Son of God in the night time interrogation. Jesus would not admit he was the Son of God at the trial and the Chief Priests were angry. If this isn't a trial, what are witnesses doing here before the chief priest and elders? Again, Matt. 27:1, "When morning was come, All the chief priest and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death." This resulted in a decision for a death sentence. Jesus admitted he was the Son of the Blessed (thus guilty) at the interrogation yes, but Jesus received the death sentence at the trial in the morning. A death sentence was handed down by the Sanhedrin. There is a difference between a legal death sentence and a condemnation of death by a crowd. The priest asked the same question as he did in the night. A prosecutor would ask the same questions as an interrogator.
I know this isn't going to go over to well, but the statement that Jesus had an illegal trial is questionable. Why would the priest need an illegal trial? They had a legal charge against Jesus according to the law of Moses. Jesus showed no proof that he was the Christ before them. Matt. 12:38-39 states, "Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, 'An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; but there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:'" The resurrection hadn't happen yet. While we are discussing the trial problems, where is it in the Old Testament that it prophesied that there would be an illegal trial? There is no mention of an illegal trial in the gospels or the rest of the New Testament.We have three gospels that show a daylight trial. John has some of the interrogation and skip's the day trials.
Before I go any farther, I'd like to say that the thought of a conquered people demanding a trial by a conquering governor before breakfast seems a little far fetched. I do not think one would barge in on a governor and make demands such as an immediate trial before breakfast.
The Bible does not state that Pilate, Herod and again Pilate saw Jesus the same day in rapid succession. That is an assumption and tradition that came down with the harmony we have today. In Luke 23:13, we read "And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priest and the rulers and the people," Pilate called the Chief Priest and rulers together. Pilate was in charge of civil order. And it was he who set the time for the trials. It appears that the first trial before Pilate was the same morning as the very early daylight Sanhedrin trial according to John 18:28 but this is an assumption
In John 18:28, it states, "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover." The accusers couldn't enter the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled and then couldn't eat the Passover. Here John does not challenge the non-defilement. If the trial were illegal, as is generally claimed then the accusers would be defiled. They would have broken their own judicial laws. Paul, being the legal person that he was, did not question the legality of Jesus trial. You can have corrupt trial and still be legal. Jesus was the Christ. He did not sin. With the evidence the priest had the trial might have appeared legal. Lev. 24:16, "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death."
After four trails from Nisan 10 to Nisan 13, John 19:14 shows the sentence handed down was at noon. two representative examples, "Ellicott's "Commentary of the whole Bible", Vol. III" and "A Commentary of the Holy Bible", by Dummelow, can give no explanation for the discrepancy in timing of Mark 15:25, "And it was the third hour(9 A.M.), and they crucified him" and John 19:14, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour, (12 noon):he saith unto the Jews, 'Behold your King!'" There is no discrepancy. Jesus was sentenced on Nisan 13.
A trial can be legal but still be totally corrupt. Jesus was convicted on Nisan 13 and Nisan 14 Jesus was crucified as was the judicial procedure at that time. Below are quotes from the "Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels", pages 731 and 732.
I submit the first trial of the Sanhedrin was in the morning. Not at night as indicated by the current harmonies. The sun rises shortly before six A.M. after the spring equinox and it was daylight as shown in Luke 22:66,"And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying," This is also found in MATT. 27:1-2 and Mark 15:1.
According to the "The Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels," pages 731-732, The Mishnah gives details of the judicial procedure of the lesser Sanhedrin of twenty- three which may reflect procedure of the Jerusalem procedure before A.D. 70. In capital cases, the verdict for an acquittal could be reached that night but the conviction had to wait until the following day. Therefore, capital trials were not held before a Sabbath. It's after his trial Monday morning that Joseph of Arimathaea may have been inspired to buy or start preparing sepulcher with the understanding of how the end would be. There is no reason for Joseph to buy land for a tomb in Jerusalem. He and his family lived in Samaria. In the "Geographical Dictionary" copyright 1964, pg. 64 it says that Arimathaea, which is a Greek form of Ramah was a town probable in Samaria but not definitely identified. After the Court of the Sanhedrin, Jesus was taken to the Court of Pilate, then the Court of Herod, than back to Pilate. The distance from the location of the Sanhedrin trial to the location of Jesus' last trial before Pilate was about 1.7 miles. From there to Golgotha was about .25 miles. this information was obtained from "The Macmillan Bible Atlas copyright 1968 - 1977 fourth print". Have your 70 or 80 year old grandfather (The probable age of the older priest) walk this distance and see how long it takes him and deduct that time from the total time of four trials. The commentaries I have looked at all say using Roman time (day starting at midnight) for John 19:14 is out as an explanation for the sixth hour. In John 4:6 it states, "Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour." Any commentary I looked at says this was noon.If it's noon here, why the question about John 19:14? John 19:14 says, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour." The question here is which Passover? The Jews Passover or the Lords Passover?
There are two different preparations in chapter 19 to separate the days. They are described differently, showing two days. There is a day of preparation before each important religious day. A Sabbath. So what is meant by preparation of the Passover?
In the book" The Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, Michigan, (on the inside of the dust cover it states "A work of immense learning, and a store house of information on every subject which comes within its range. Edersheim's unsurpassed study is today the most extensively use "Life of Christ" in the English language.")The second sentence of Book III,Vol.2, page 479-80 states, " It began on the 14th Nisan, that is, from the appearance of the first three stars on Wednesday evening [the evening of what had been the 13th], and ended with the first three stars on Thursday evening [The evening of what had been the 14th day of Nisan]. As this is an exceeding important point, it is well here to quote the language of the Jerusalem Talmund: "(a)" 'What mean: On the pesach? "(1)" On the 14th (Nisan).' And so Josephus describes the Feast as one of the eight days, "(b)" evidently reckoning its beginning on the 14th, and its close at the end of the 21st Nisan."
"(a)" Jer. Prs.
"(1)" in footnotes, it states ((The question is put in connection with Pes. i, 8.)
"(b)" The margin note states, Ant. li. 15,1=See the Jerusalem Gemara (Jer.Pes.27 b, towards the end). But the detailed quotations would here be so numerous_that it seems wiser to omit them.
In Ex. 12:15, it reads" Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven from your houses. For whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel."
According to Ex.12:15, the feast was set to last seven days, not eight. The 14th would be the preparation for the 15th, to get all leaven out of the house! According to Mr. Edersheims book in the footnotes of page 480 he writes in footnote number 2, "The Jerusalem Talmud gives the most minute detail of the places in which search is to be made. One Rabbi proposed that the search be repeated at three different times! If it had been omitted on the evening of the 13th, it would be made of the fore noon of 14 Nisan."
The preparation for Passover was on the 13th Nisan, the day all leaven was to be removed, during the time Jesus was on earth, according to the writings of Josephus and the Talmud. Mr. Edersheim also writes from his research, page 480, "For, on the evening (of the 13th) commenced the 14th of Nisan, when a solemn search was made with lighted candle throughout each house for any leaven that might be hidden, or have fallen aside by accident. Such was put by in a safe place, and afterwards destroyed with the rest. In Galilee it was the usage to abstain wholly from work; in Judea the day was divided, and actual work ceased only at noon, though nothing new was taken in hand even in the morning. This division of the day for festive purposes was a Rabbinic addition; and, by way of a hedge around it, an hour before midday was fixed after which nothing leavened might be eaten. The more strict abstained from it even an hour earlier (at ten o'clock), lest the eleventh hour might insensibly run into the forbidden midday. But there could be little real danger of this, since, by way of public notification, two desecrated thankoffering cakes were laid on a bench in the Temple, the removal of one of which indicated that the time for eating what was leavened had passed; the removal of the other, that the time for destroying all the leaven had come."
The official Passover in Jesus time was an eight day feast from the beginning of the evening of the 13th Nisan. Thursday was used to deleaven the house in preparation for the first day of the feast, the 14th. The 15th was still the High Holy Day. The 14th had become part of the official feast.
In John 12:1, where John states, "Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany...", he was referring to the Lord's Passover day of the 14th, the first day of the feast. It was Nisan 13,"...about the sixth hour..."(John19:14.)Then we go to Luke 23:24 which states, "And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required." i.e. the death sentence. Matt. 27:26-27 states, "Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall," (Greek [Preatoium,] the head quarters of Pilate. Also called Fort Antonia. Built by Herod the Great and named for Mark Anthony. This was a citadel, with towers on each corner, with one that was seventy cubits high. Within its walls were quarters for Pilate's guards, along with what you would expect to find in a fort including a jail.This is the jail that the guards brought Barabbas from and where Jesus stayed till the crucifixion. More information about the Antonia fortress on the internet.) "and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers". (PLEASE NOTE, JESUS WAS NOT TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM PILATE TO CLAVARY.) Mark 15:25 states, "And it was the third hour (9 A.M.) and they crucified Him." This was on the 14th of Nisan. Later that day after Jesus was taken off of the cross, John 19:31 states, "the Jews, therefore because it was the preparation,( not preparation of the Passover) that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath was a high day) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." They were referring to the 15th, the first day of Unleavened Bread,( or Jews Passover) mentioned in Ex.12:15.
Second Tim.3:16 states, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Joseph Armand Petit
-Jay
Jay,
Did you actually read this thing you posted?
It says:
The Old Testament calls Nisan 15 the Feast of Unleavened Bread as did the apostles and Jesus. The Lord's Passover is at the evening of the 14th of Nisan. It was also called the Passover by Jesus and the apostles. The lamb that was killed is called the Passover in the time of Jesus and is called that today by the Jews.
This is true.
So you are saying he ate the passover or not?
It also says:
This was the ninth and they were going to celebrate the beginning of the Passover Season. Now, the disciples came to Jesus expecting to celebrate. It wasn't the first time this was done. Also the man with the pitcher was familiar with the practice. Jesus and his followers sat down to eat. On 10 Nisan Luke 22:15 states, "And he said unto them, 'With desire I have desired to eat this passover (it was the Passover season, yes?) with you before I suffer:'" Luke 22:19 states, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, 'This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.'" Luke 22:20 states, "Likewise also the cup after supper, 'This cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you."' Jesus, being the Lamb of God wasn't going to be with them on the 15th. He instituted the bread and wine ahead of time. Animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. When this service is done now is another matter, which I'm not addressing at this time.
This is also conjecture. Where did this idea come from?
So, According to what I can read from this article, Jesus did not eat the passover.
Alot of this is poorly worded and hard to follow.
What the author is trying to say , I think is:
Jesus ate some sort of special meal that I have never heard of on the 10th of Nisan. This was not a seder.
Also:
1) Jesus instituted the New Covenant at this meal according to the NT (which disagrees with Jeremiah 31.)
2) This occured on Nisan 10 and although it occurred the day before Jesus died on the 14th because of 4 missing days.
Why didn't you just refute my post?
Why can't you rely on Scripture to answer me?
If I can build my post on it then you could answer with it.
But as I have learned in the past you don't do that.
So from what I see in this monstrosity of a post, You agree. Jesus didn't eat the Passover.
-james W.
James,
Why did Yeshua meet with them and eat on the 10th?
Exodus 12:3 says:
Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house:
So he fulfilled this part of passover with his apostles. This would be the start of the Passover by seperating or taking in Yeshua as they would have a lamb. This doesn't mean that it was the Passover meal.
4 missing days?
Exodus 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Again prophecy fulfilled. Killed on the 14th.
You complain James that I don't use scripture to explain my rebute with you but outside study of the scripture is a neccesity in order to understand what is being written. The problem with the "church" today is that they read the scripture in todays known language instead of studying the lifestyle and culture from the time of Yeshua. That is what I try to bring to the table here. The study I gave from Petite was hard to follow I will agree and though some of what he writes is speculative the parts dealing with historical times is of value.
Like I said to you before, it is understood today that there were differing oppinions of when feasts and festivals were to be celebrated. The Saducees and Pharisees didn't see eye to eye on life and times. As you see today it still happens. The Karaites wait for the barley to sprout before they start to count days to shavuot others do not. This same confusion was going on during the life of Yeshua. Some focused on the fourteenth and some on the fifteenth (John's wording of "jews passover" instead of "Passover".
Furthermore, if Yeshua wished to celebrate the passover meal with his disciples knowning he wouldn't be there for the "Passover Celebration Day" what is the big deal?
Yeshua would be nailed to a cross during Passover and he wanted "wished" to have the meal with his disciples and YOU are going to nitpick his actions???
James,
If you were going to die the day before your birthday and you wanted to celebrate it with you family would that be okay? And if later people talked about that sad day by saying "he wanted to have his birthday meal with us so we did." Would it be my place to stand up and shout "That isn't his birthday, You didn't celebrate James birthday. It was the next day, why are you lieing about James birthday!!!????"
This is exactley what you are doing here James.
One of two things happened here. (1) Yeshua ate an early meal with his disciples becasue on THE day he would be dead. It was an honorary passover seder.
(2) The social groups of that time didn't see eye to eye on how and when it should be celebrated and so there were 2 different days being honored. One on the 14th and one on the 15th because of how the start and end of days were being looked at morning to morning or evening to evening.
As for the New Covenant. It fall right in line with Jeremiah. When Yeshua ascended into heaven the Holy spirit came to be our comforter and the Torah was written on our hearts like it says.
I started out in my posts reffering to scripture to make my point but since that didn't work I chose to find others that had done larger studies to show their points. For me to do that I wouldn't be able to answer some of your question in depth for months. So I appologize if you didn't like the way I answered the postings but for now I will try to use both methods.
Shalom.
-Jay
Jay,
Your arguments are ridiculous.
Read this passage from Jeremiah 31 and tell me... Did all this happen when Jesus made his covenant?
And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Well, did it?
-james w
James,
You act just like the children of today. You have to have everything "Right Now!!!" Have you studied prophecy in the bible or do you just CLAIM to study it? How many times in the Tenach did someone make a prophecy and the entire prophecy get fulfilled completely right then, at that moment or at least within a few years or months or days? A few times, yes, but not ever time. Look at what happened to Babylon, Tyre and others. Some took many centuries to completely be fulfilled and many enemies had to lend a hand in finishing the job, as with Babylon.
So my answer to you about Jeremiah is this. Yes some has been fulfilled (the Torah is written on our hearts [the Ruach HaChodesh]), some is in the process of being fulfilled:
Jeremiah 31:10
"Hear the word of the LORD, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'
(New International Version translation)
In Jeremiah 31:10, the prophet said that God would one day gather the Jews back to Israel and that He would watch over them like a shepherd. God indeed has watched over the re-established nation of Israel. Hours after Israel declared independence in 1948, the surrounding countries attacked, hoping to replace the Jewish state with an Arab state. These countries are much larger than Israel. But tiny Israel prevailed in that war and was able to capture additional land, increasing the land size of Israel by 50 percent. - Research and commentary by George and Raymond Konig of www.AboutBibleProphecy.com
Eating of sour grapes and other prophetic references don't give a time table and they have been going on forever. Hard times is a way of life. Again you are nitpicking and NOT STUDYING like you say. You talk alot but so far you have given nothing but anti-biblical and anti-God hogwash spoonfed to you by hasatan and his little helpers.
Since the only thing you are griping about now is Jeremiah 31, I will assume everything else I wrote about the Passover confusion is to your agreement. I'm glad we got that ironed out.
Prove to me that you indeed study the scripture as you claim.
Using history and common sense, I've again and agian shown where you have gone wrong and yet you still claim this grand knowledge. I see nothing but denials based on a lack of understanding and arrogance on your part. The things I have said to you should be enough for you to stop and think about maybe going back to get a better look at these things you claim are wrong. When I think something doesn't make sense I don't say to myself, "the bible must be wrong and I must be correct." I say, "I better take a closer look at this and find out where I have gone wrong."
Try it.
-Jay
Jay,
I knew that eventually if I stood my ground it would ultimately end up in you personally attacking me.
No, I don't agree with you about the passover. I can't. The plain reading of the NT denies what you say but the end result is the same, Jesus did not eat a passover Seder. The article you posted is flawed. I doubt you could find any justiication for a "special meal" commemorating the beginning of the passover season. It is just not correct.
If you persist in personal attacks I will not respond to you anymore.
I have not attacked you personally. I have never said you didn't study. Basically you are calling me a liar. That is uncalled for. We can disagree. You and I can point out the grounds by which we do.
I say that you and the person who wrote the article are incorrect but i don't need to attack you. When I do I immediately loose all credibility.
The same goes for you.
James,
If you wish to continue going into Christian blogs and denying the truth about the Messiah and the bible then you should get tougher.
Calling you a child was an example of how you are looking at the prophecies. It was a comparison of a child that wants everything right now and a person looking and denying the prophecies because they have not all come to pass.....wait......be patient. I will not call you a liar....you are a misguided desceiver. You believe what you say but when others show examples of how you could be wrong you blow them off and that is foolish.
About my remarks about your studying the bible? I have the right to say what I said when go about bragging to everyone how you have studied the bible for 30 years. You 30 years of study have been in vain and lead you away from God, but you think you are closer and you want us to come with you. Anyone can study for long periods of time and claim seniority and claim scholarly knowledge and yet be an uneducated person. That is why I said what I said about your study it has been in vain.
Shalom achi.
Jay,
So if I quote scripture to you and tell you that according to what I read in the Hbrew Bible you are wrong, I am looking at things as if I am a child.
If you don't answer my questions with Scripture and post someone else's article you are a learned Bible teacher.
Now I know why others on other forums don't like your methods.
I stick by everything I have said and don't have to rely on someone I have never met to write articles for me.
You don't like what I said so that makes me childish. I believe as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Hosea did. Or is that childish in your eyes.
Tell me, do you like what they say enough to let them preach if they came to your church? Or is what they said outdated, because they didn't "believe" in Jesus. This is purely retorical because I know the answer. What it amounts to is that you believe that your G-d is so sadistic that he would purposefully hide the truth from the prophets and Israel while telling them that "he was not speaking in secret to Jacob so that they would be seeking him in vain."
That is not the way Hashem works.
The Torah teaches:
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
The real sad thing is for a person to believe what you believe you must deny what Hashem says, therefore, it is pointless to deal with you. You are not acting rationally.
I won't reply to your comments again and please don't email me, either.
And to everyone else,
I enjoy conversing with you and discussing this.
Just remember there is no need to personally attack anyone even if you believe down deep that someone that believes as I do is a satanic deceiver that is wasting every breath they take.
Thanks,
-james w.
James said....
You don't like what I said so that makes me childish. I believe as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Hosea did. Or is that childish in your eyes.
Tell me, do you like what they say enough to let them preach if they came to your church? Or is what they said outdated, because they didn't "believe" in Jesus.
I am saying....
I believe Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea would recognize God's prophecies fulfilled in Jesus and as such would worship Him, and trust him as their Saviour. Even though they did not get to see Him I believe they looked forward to His coming and trusted God to provide their Saviour.
I also think it is a silly statement to say "Tell me, do you like what they say enough to let them preach if they came to your church?" Who wouldn't want to hear some of the great prophets of God in person? What an opportunity to talk to the very people God gave the prophecies too about His Son Jesus.
God bless,
Andrew
James,
Let me make this simple for you so you don't misunderstand me.
You made reference to Jeremiah as if it must ALL be complete for it to be accurate. I said part of the prophecy has been fulfilled and some is in the process and some has yet to happen. Children of today do NOT want to wait for anything (fast food, internet etc...) you are doing the same thing as far as I'm concerned. This IS NOT saying you are childish it means you are acting in the same way as the children of today act.
NO PATIENTS.
I have quoted passages to you before and it does no good.
I have also heard many good teaching based on lifetimes of research (that I don't have time to do) that are valid and good. You don't like or listen to the articles and that is fine. But for you to mock me for sending them to you as a means of proof that is foolish. I don't say that what I send you is complete 100% truth without some bias, nothing is. But they are ased on history and if I can get information from people like Josephus and others that lived at the time of the Savior then I think they know more than you or anybody else that came later. The closer you get to the time in mention (Yeshua's time) the better off you are, and that is what I have tried to give you.
I do not deny what Hashem says. I understand it, that is the difference between you and I. You used to be a Christian then you moved on to your Hebrew roots of Christianity which led you to Torah and understanding the laws and then you forgot what the message was all about and denied your Messiah and converted fully to Judaism. A typical pattern of one who didn't understand the Bible. I've seen it many times.
The prophets didn't believe in the Messiah????? Really? And the proof you have for this is the same proof you use to deny the Savior huh? The prophets KNEW the Messiah my friend, they knew him. That is why they prophesied about him.
Good Sabbath James.
-Jay
Good article on this at:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/
passovertime.html
That is a good article. Thank you for sharing that and I had never heard of that web site either. I will be adding it to my favorites.
Another good site to bookmark is:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/
Very detailed answers on just about any subject.
By the way, I just bought Lee Strobel's "The Case for the Real Jesus" and there is an entire chapter dedicated to the objections of Judaism to Jesus as Messiah.
Lee interviews Dr. Michael L. Brown about messianic prophecy and hits him with a lot of the common objections that rabbis have against Jesus. The guy is good. Check out his Q&A page:
http://www.ilifetv.com/thinkitthru/
answers.htm
VERY interesting reading.
Pass it on.
Michael Brown's False Prophecy
By now we are all familiar with the prophecy - first denied to be a prophecy, then admitted to be a prophecy, then denied to be a prophecy - issued by John Kilpatrick on April 6, 1997 against CRI and its president, Hank Hanegraaff. However, it has been discovered that John Kilpatrick is not the first Brownsville Assembly of God staff member to have prophecied falsely. As far back as 1987, Dr. Michael Brown, Brownsville's chief apologist, issued one of his own.
One of the foremost theologians and spokemen for the Messianic Jewish Congregation (MJC) has informed us of an embarrassing prophecy given by Dr. Brown. Given the international nature of his ministry, this spokesman wishes to remain anonymous, but reader inquiries related to any cited material will be forwarded to him and he will reply privately with the inquirer.
This spokesman of the Messianic Jewish Congregation wishes to make it well and formally known that Dr. Michael L. Brown is not reflective of, nor does he represent, on any level, national or international, the MJC. Furthermore, beyond speaking in and through the local MJC church he once belonged to, he has never been a formal spokesman, either nationally or internationally, for the MJC. He did indicate that he thought Brown was an elder in the MJC church he once belonged to and that he was involved and spoke at some meetings, including the Conference of Messianic Jewish believers sponsored by Israeli Messianic Jews in Jerusalem, Israel back in '87 or '88. This was a collaborative effort between American and Israeli Messianic Jewish believers, encompassing a diversity of theological backgrounds ranging from charismatic to non-charismatic.
While speaking at that Jerusalem gathering, Michael Brown proceeded to tell the attendees that "tonight," that night, would be a "history making" night insomuch as the Holy Spirit would descend in power and fire as earth-shaking and monumental as the literal day of Pentecost detailed in Acts, chapter 2. On a video of this speech in the presence of Israeli Messianic leaders including such leading scholars as Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum who all witnessed the false prophetic predictions, Michael Brown went so far as to interpret the national disaster of forest fires destroying 20% of Israel's reforested land as emblematic of the outpouring.[Reported in the Moriel Newsletter Number 9; Jacob Prasch Ministry] Somewhere around 2am, when it became apparent nothing "earth shaking" was going to occur that evening, Brown's "prophecy" fizzled and he subsequently issued a letter of apology, attempting to claim that the reason nothing came of it was because several people in attendance were allegedly praying "against" his "prophesy". He would ultimately go on to admit that, in fact, he must not have been "in the Spirit" when he made the aforementioned proclamation
Don't know much about that. All I know is he puts up a great argument in these debates with these rabbis:
http://www.ilifetv.com/thinkitthru/
debates.htm
One of which is Tovia Singer.
Even if he did make a false prophecy, I think it may be a bit hasty to completely disregard everything else he has to say. After all, we all make mistakes. Sure, a false prophecy isn't as minor as breaking the speed limit, but why not listen to what he says and test it to Scripture? Give it a chance.
James said:
"Now I know why others on other forums don't like your methods."
Who and what other forums? This is news to me. Like your views on the bible.....More unfounded accusations. Back up your statements with proof please.
Jay,
Sorry, I must have you confused with another "Jay" on another forum. I thought you were one and the same. My appologies. My mistake.
james w.
(I’m posting this here because I don’t have an account and James requires one to post comments on his page.)
I read James’ “Origins of Christianity” blog. This is a perfect example of why one should be extremely careful about what they read and potentially believe on the web. The entire article is based on the claim that Christianity wasn’t even around until the 4th century. It also implies that the churches have either fabricated or changed historical records to make it appear that it existed prior to that time.
While this claim essentially nullifies any argument that uses evidence from even secular documents like that of Josephus, Tacitus, or Pliny the Younger (to name a few), which clearly testify to an existence of Christianity prior to the 4th century, it seems to forget about the existing papyrus manuscripts with parts of NT Scriptures written on them that predate that century.
One example of papyrus at Manchester University was sent to three leading papyrologists in Europe and each reported that it was to be dated no later than AD 150 and no earlier than AD 100. And this is just one of MANY papyri found with NT Scriptures that predate the 4th century, and which are preserved at various locations world wide. The Russian National Library, Princeton University Library, Ambrose Swabey Library, Chester Beatty Library, and the Ashmolean Museum are some of the places where these pieces of hard, tangible evidence are located. And these are just the accepted NT documents.
Even the existing false gospels like that of Thomas, Mary, and Judas are dated prior to the 4th century. Although they give a warped view of what the true Gospels teach, even they could be considered as evidence that Christianity existed before James’ article claims.
So where does the evidence point us in reading this article about the “Origins of Christianity”? Is it an example of a scholar conforming his theory to the evidence presented to him? Or, is it another example of a “scholar” conforming the evidence to fit his theory?
It wasn’t too long ago that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claimed “They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred…” He unquestionably called the Holocaust a myth!
Now, should we just blindly accept this statement because it’s on TV or the web, or do we look at the existing historical evidence that shows where this individual is clearly conforming the evidence to fit his claim, rather than conforming his claim to the evidence?
This isn’t even saying that Christianity is true. It’s simply saying that there is evidence that it existed prior to the 4th century. The papyri evidence alone is enough to show the huge crack in the foundation of what James’ article claims about Christianity.
After recognizing that the entire article is built on a faulty foundation, it doesn’t take long to recognize other problems within it. Not just in the twisting of historical facts but in the obvious application of a double standard. The very arguments that are used to discredit the NT are equally discrediting of the OT.
One example claims if the authors were true Hebrews they wouldn’t have allowed the original text to be written in Greek or to be lost. (Which if they had not written in Greek it would have defeated the purpose of trying to spread the message among the Greek speaking culture, plus it would be hard for them to protect the originals after they had died.)
One could apply this standard to the authors of the OT. If they were true Hebrews, why did they allow the original text of the OT to be lost? (He says this was “never done with any of the Books of the” OT, but I highly doubt the original books that Moses or the prophets wrote are still intact.)
Another big example is the implication that the history books are false because that is “what the churches want everyone to think.” This clearly implies that you can’t trust the NT or the history books because the Church controlled them.
Consider these equally bigoted claims:
“You can’t trust American history books because the publishing companies were controlled by America and Americans only tell you what they want you to think.”
OR
“You can’t trust Israel’s history books because the publishing companies have been controlled by Israel for years and Jews only record what they want you to think.”
Or how about this?
“You can’t trust the OT because it was written by Jews?”
Such ignorant statements deserve as much credence as those of a KKK member saying “you can’t trust a black person,” or the president of Iran saying the Holocaust didn’t happen.
Not only is it wrong to apply these double standards, it's unfair. But it is worth noting that the very idea of the Church perverting the historical records fails to stand up under scrutiny.
Consider the claim that Jesus was a false prophet because there are still stones upon each other in Jerusalem (referring to the surrounding wall of the destroyed temple). Many rabbis claim that this proves the prophecy false.
Now why is it that the church would take the time to misconstrue the history books and yet not edit this so-called false prophecy out? It seems to be quite a waste of effort and time to attempt to deceive so many with historical records and yet not change their own Scriptures which contain such "obvious falsehoods".
And this question applies to other things-embarrassing things-recorded in the Gospels. Why include so many details of the disciples being prideful, cowardly, and at some times just plain dumb? Why tell that Jesus’ family didn’t believe in him? Why say women discovered the empty tomb? Why tell of him clearing the temple with a whip, teaching to “hate” one’s parents, to "violate" the Sabbath, and on and on if they are such blatant falsehoods and obvious proofs that the NT is a false document?!
Why in the world would this juggernaut called the Church manipulate and rewrite secular historical records and yet not rewrite the NT Scriptures to make them more convincing and less disputable? They've had hundreds of years to do it. Wouldn't they have gotten it done by now?
I hope the answer would be obvious.
So much more could be said about this but many times airtight logic backed up with convincing data simply isn’t enough to convince some people. It’s a shame that there’s not a reliable filter on the web to distinguish between sober-minded scholars and delusional crackpots. But the truth is that articles like James’ get posted nonetheless; one-sided, misinformed arguments that ignore weighty scholarly opinions that have already been published to refute such assertions; articles that repeat claims and arguments that should have been laid to rest decades ago.
Some may see it as truth, but in reality it deserves no more credit than Dan Brown’s “DaVinci Code.”
I wish I had a more polite way to end this post but I feel a little irritated that someone would claim to be telling the truth of our Creator and yet overlooking such obvious contradictions withing their own claims.
Plus it's just plain sad.
It's like watching someone trying to sail a ship that has hand numerous holes punched in it (with truth). And instead of getting out of that sinking ship they try to patch up the holes with incorrect information, faulty logic, double standards, and just plain denial.
It's like trying to hold the Titanic together with masking tape and used chewing gum.
james w.
I have heard all this before. I posted the article because it sounds as feasible as the NT stories. It is one persons opinion and I do post more than one point of view. I would happily post yours there.
The reason I only allow registered users to post is that I get on the average of 100-200 robot posts a day adverizing znything from brothels to viagra. It is unfortunate but that is what is needed to limited the junk.
Thanks for visiting my blog.
Wow James. I had to think a while on what you wrote because I thought, "surely he didn't just equate the article on HIS blog with the NT. But he DID say, 'it sounds as feasible as the NT stories.'" And if I remember correctly you called the NT "ridiculous."
Sure, copy/paste what I wrote on your site. Better yet, copy/paste what you wrote so that everyone who reads your blog can see that even you don't believe what you put on there. (But if you do do that, make sure to copy ALL of it.)
You say that article is one person's "opinion"?
You know what? I think chocolate ice cream cream is delicious. That's my "opinion." It cannot be proven true or false because it's relative to me. However, if I say the Holocaust never happened, it's not my "opinion." It's a big, fat, morbidly obese LIE. Why? Because it CAN be proven true or false.
To say that article is an "opinion" should be seen in the same respect. Why? Because it can be proven true or FALSE.
You accused someone before of doing something that would cause them to lose credibility. Well, what kind of credibility should we give a guy who posts a huge article (that is proven false)and later admits that he thinks it isn't really valid???
But we will all probably hear another form of "I've heard that before."
I have no doubt that you have "heard" a LOT of things. But I wonder how well you LISTEN to what you hear.
You know what chief? There's something up with you. I don't mean to get personal, but I seriously doubt that you looked at all the existing evidence and came to the logical conclusion that Jesus was not who he said he was.
Either you haven't looked at all the evidence or you have and are just blatantly denying it.
I would suggest resources to read but I got a feeling it's pointless with you. I hope you come around my friend.
Now I have to go because I have some delicious pizza ready. (But that's just MY opinion.)
What I find interesting is that no one addresses the issues raises by James they only attack him. To me that gives me pause. I wonder, if you believe that you are right and James is wrong why don't you present an argument and not an attack.
Anonymous post #35,
Are serious? Have you read the posts? I personally gave plenty of arguements for James to look at based on scripture and historical research done by myself and others. If you see that as an attack then I'm sorry, I personally see it as multiple views being ironed out on a blog. They tend to get heated at times when integrity comes into question. Go back and re-read all the posts and you will see what I mean.
-Jay
Jay,
AMEN my brother. I'm glad someone else said what I was thinking because I'm sitting here scratching my head in bewilderment.
I mean, "no one addresses the issues raises by James they only attack him" ???? Or, "why don't you present an argument and not an attack"????
It's like you said, did that guy even read the other posts? I think a huge problem here is still the double standard. You see, a non-Christian can come to a Christian site, say whatever they want and it's simply them presenting their opinion, regardless of how it's written.
But if a Christian responds, and has even the slightest bit of sarcasm, aggression, or intensity whatsoever it's considered an attack.
But even if the response is stated plainly with no hint of emotion or accusation some will still respond as if it were incorrect or just plain nonsense.
Jesus had the same problem in John 10:24-25. "The Jews gathered around him saying, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us PLAINLY.' Jesus answered, 'I DID tell you, but you do not believe.'" (emphasis added)
What's ironic too is how someone of the Jewish faith will used the same approach to tear apart the NT as an atheist would use to tear apart the OT. I can go to any atheist website and find plenty of contradictions in the OT. And if I harden my heart enough and ignore every legitimate hermeneutic skill I've ever learned, I'll believe every one of them.
I think I'm done with this issue. Explanations were presented, yet denied. Evidence that James has faulty information presented as truth on his blog was brought up, but he brushed it off. And people are still asking why no one answers him and only attack him. (Personally I think James should call in and ask Hank this question, that is if he hasn't already.)
I don't know how to communicate with such people. It's as bad as arguing with an atheist. They are gonna believe what they are gonna believe. I myself will believe in the historical evidence plus all the other evidence that is too numerous to ignore.
Have a great week everyone.
Post a Comment